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THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

Sport Horse Breeding
#381

It seems a good idea, as some of the registries are doing, to provide a USEF lifetime number with the correct and full information as part of the inspection process.

I just find it hard to understand why the breeders would be listed and accumulate points but the full parentage of the animal would be listed as unknown in part. Goes back to that database/identification problem again.

The second sentence in that paragraph was merely an observation. Lots of horses aren’t registered with anybody, and I can certainly see why an owner might not enter the full registration particulars on the USEF record, since many owners probably don’t care that the breeders and registries get proper credit.l

#382

Its Smart Chic Olena. He is the most expensive QH in the world at the moment, followed by Shining Spark, at $15,000.

Smart Chic Olena does not ship semen anymore either - all mare must be on the farm in order to be bred (using AI - not live cover). And his book was STILL full this year.

#383

[QUOTE=vineyridge;2611567]
What I do not understand from the ranking is how so many horses who are listed as registered have unknown dams or damsires. There were also a lot of horses that didn’t claim registries, and a lot that didn’t list their registry numbers.

Is that a USEF recording problem? [/QUOTE]

Most horses are registered with USEF by their buyer. And if you have been following this forum much, you know there have been MANY threads lamenting the fact that most buyers are riders who don’t know enough about bloodlines to understand and appreciate their horse’s pedigree. There may be some who think it is cool that their horse is sired by Idocus or Popeye K or Judgement or another top winning stallion, but they couldn’t remember the dam’s bloodlines if you held a gun to their head. Contrast this with Germany, where probably 90% or more of riders can quote at least the sire and damsire of practically every horse they sit on. It’s an education issue that is slowly getting better, but we have a long way to go before the average sporthorse buyer can look at a prospect’s pedigree and have a fair idea of the attributes and performance history of the horse’s family. So when the new owner of a horse goes to register the horse with USEF - usually at the last minute before a show - and can’t remember the horse’s bloodlines and doesn’t remember where she put the horse’s papers, she leaves the bloodline info blank, or puts in what little she does remember.

#384

OT, I wonder if some mare owners were splitting the dose, and yes I know that the offspring couldn’t be registered.

#385

LOL, I’ve been thinking alpacas

#386

What I do not understand from the ranking is how so many horses who are listed as registered have unknown dams or damsires. There were also a lot of horses that didn’t claim registries, and a lot that didn’t list their registry numbers.

Is that a USEF recording problem?
Even when I have sent in A COPY OF THE PEDIGREE and registration papers, USEF manages to get it wrong.

#387

You’re right, Janet, but the guy is really willing to make corrections. Everyone who notices a missing parent in the lists should email Ken with the information. Those broodmares really do deserve credit (and their sires, too–I think he’ll use the damsire name, too, if you provide it). I’m not sure if he’s going to ask if you are the actual owner or breeder, though, but asking can’t hurt. It’d be nice to get that list up to snuff–but I don’t think one man and incomplete data can do it. We should help, if we care.

DownYonder, you make a good point about ignorant buyers–and that point prompted me to consider that as a problem for the seller of a genuine $10K plus weanling. The usual circles of breeder-to-breeder and vanity sales, with the occasional ambitious rider/trainer, is heavily dependent on an informed clientele. Perhaps what WB breeders need to do is more outreach to educate folks about what quality is. And what a decent marketing tool that would be, too. Maybe in conjunction with an inspection or a show a registry or breeders group could do a clinic or open house or something, explaning pedigree analysis and its relationship to performance and also demonstrating desireable qualities in foals, stallions and mares.

For example, there are a set of traits I’d like to see 8.5, 8.0, 7.5, and 7.0 examples of (if they were to be individually assessed that way), just to tune my eye. I’d like to see 1.) engagement, 2.) cadence (as in “airiness” wih oomph), 3.) whatever is the most desired front end action (that’s a biggie I’d like to know more about–the extend of knee action and/or shoulder extension and/or toe point–is there a high-to-low standard, mix of traits or something there?), 4.) and neck set and length, and back length. I would LOVE to learn about those things so that I could pick that FEI prospect as a weanling or yearling just as confidently as that ambitious rider/trainer I mentioned earlier.

And I think (not just because I live here and it’s be so convenient) the FL Horse Park has just the location, fair rates and facilities to be a great venue during the winter season for WB breeders to invite hunter, jumper, eventer and dressage riders to enjoy wine, cheese and really useful knowledge!

No doubt that spreading that knowledge would go a long way toward avoiding the “what is it worth” disagreements that this thread illustrates.

I think the hunter industry could benefit in the same way, but 1.) unlike WBs, I don’t think, market- and image-wise, it really needs to and 2.) I think USHJA is actually making strides in that direction as it is.

#388

That is exactly what they do in a Sporthorse Breeders Seminar - usually complete with lunch. They bring in different ages, critique and discuss. Many seminares are 2 days.

You will learn a tremendous amount, but there may still be a problem in your education. One or the seminars I attended had a demo mare that was owned by a friend of the lecturer, and the very weak loin connection was not duscussed as part of the conformation evaluation. Attend several with different people lecturing to get a good working knowledge.

You can also volunteer at a SHB show to scribe. :wink:

#389

The crux of the matter, and the real issue behind pricing WB weanlings, is WHO determines quality? YOU? ME? Inspectors? Well, how many times have weanlings gone for inspection and come back with average scores and the owner STILL thinks it’s quality.

I thought we’d already established many posts ago that if you’re the buyer, then you get to determine quality. The seller, OTOH, gets to determine price.

Hanoverians aren’t given an inspection score as weanlings, since horses change so much as they grow, and since a foal might wind up presented at a less-than-stellar stage of development.

I do agree that what makes a greater impression at sport horse shows and inspections is a flashy trot, but there are other qualities of gaits besides that impressive trot that may make for a better competition horse down the road. Educated buyers know that, though.

#390

Well, I have figured out why Gypsy horses are so expensive…4000 dollar stud fees LOL omg !

#391

I’ve just spent a good bit of time scanning the USEF breeder rankings for dressage that STF so kindly linked for us. Was not able to go below horses with twenty points, but that seems a fair number for success.

Most of the points were in levels below PSG. Now if what I’ve learned on CoTH is true, there are talented horses in almost all breeds and mixes of breeds who can do dressage up to fourth level. The big gap is between fourth level and PSG.

I counted five American bred horses with GP points from performance. They were all warmbloods. I should have made a list, but didn’t. I also counted about ten or fewer with Intermediate performance points. There weren’t many more with PSG points.

The huge majority of horses with more than twenty points were in the lower levels or young riders or A/A. I’d say more were in training and first level than anywhere else. And the vast majority of breeders had only one horse with points.

Is that a USEF recording problem?
I’m not sure where the problem lies as I don’t know how you get onto this list, but I can say that it appears to be very skewed and very, very, very incomplete. Do breeders self report? Does the USEF automatically add you as horses you bred (and sold) compete? If people don’t register horses with sire, dam and damsire, or especially if they don’t include breeder, or worse yet - claim themselves as breeder, there is NO WAY this list can ever be complete or correct and it makes a joke of the ‘statistics’. The USEF really needs to get on the ball. We really, really do need a tamper proof horse identification system in this country.

#392

Thank you Tiki!

Im so burned out on this, I cant even go into the reasons behind the ranking issues. Its very wrong. Im glad or the ones who are getting reported correctly and they USEF has bent over backwards to help us get some stuff straight, but there is so much not correct just on our end. P has 6 horses that are not even listed for his sire rankings and based on the points would put him in the top 20.

Anyway, thanks for addresss it, Im burned out on justifying what we do as breeders and the work, effort, tears and money that go into it to be belittled by those who think we are trying to rip them off when we represent our best stock at the prices we do! :no: Key word there people is BEST STOCK, so dont start again. The mule is tired!

#393

One of the ways a breeder gets listed is for the horse to be competing for Silver Stirrup Awards, which come from the PHR.

So if the registries would not only get lifetime ID numbers for their foals at inspection but would also sign them up for the PHR, a large part of the problem might be avoided.

#394

Many breeders are now lifetime registering their foals with USEF and USDF to ensure that they get recorded correctly with those organizations. That in and of itself is going to help ensure that this info gets into the database. But it still requires that new owners of those horses DO NOT RE-REGISTER them under a different name / number. THAT is the other problem - people re-naming every horse they buy and then registering the horse with the national federations under the new name. (A friend of mine determined earlier this year that a horse she had bred and sold as a weanling 13 years ago has been registered with USEF and/or USDF under FOUR different names!! :no:)

#395

Nevada has approximately 150 foals on the ground. I probably can account for half. Many, I don’t even know their birth names, much less the name who ever they were sold to named them for shows. I get the tiny birth announcement with the newborn foal photo, then nothing. Some breeders never even let the stallion owner know the mare is pregnant. I have “found” them years later thru an ad, or a conversation with a vet, etc., so may be more than ~150 as those are only the confirmed, “Hey it’s a bay colt” ones. How in the world would I ever be able to correct breeding information, when I don’t know where, or who they are?

The USEF also charges LESS for someone to get a new number, than it does for a name and owner change - ENCOURAGING the “loss of history” that so many sellers want.

It makes my dizzy to think of someone like Liz Hall trying to keep track of the thousands of horses out there competing by her stallions - especially the solid color ones, and many of those have been outstanding.

#396

Vineyridge.
That’s a good suggestion and explanation and it deserves its own thread. A lot of people may have moved on from here and won’t see it.

#397

I seriously doubt that most of the horses listed there are enrolled in the Silver Stirrup Awards program. Why on earth would you want to double register your horse and pay for the ‘privilege’ with the PHR if it is already in its breed registry?

I’m sure you’re right in that it’s one way to get recognized, but since USEF receives scores from all recognized shows - after all they control all the recognized shows, don’t they - why aren’t all the other breeders and horses listed. What happened to all of ISF’s super Contango offspring? What happened to lots of breeders and their wonderful offspring?

#398

[QUOTE=vineyridge;2612405]
One of the ways a breeder gets listed is for the horse to be competing for Silver Stirrup Awards, which come from the PHR.

So if the registries would not only get lifetime ID numbers for their foals at inspection but would also sign them up for the PHR, a large part of the problem might be avoided.[/QUOTE]

The BWP used to automatically register all of the foals into the PHR - but, we found providing lifetime USEF numbers to be more desirable.

#399

Yes and No.

Depends on the circumstances.

HID is always free including transfers of a HID.
Annual recording fee is $75.
Life Recording is $200.
$60 transfer fee is waived if the horse recording is upgraded from Annual to Life Recording .

A new thread would be a good idea.
The life recording fees were reduced to encourage recording. It’s a sliding scale. So yes, if you recorded as a foal for $35 then it might cost $ 120 to change the name and the ownership.
But the fees were reduced to help the breeders so you can’t have it both ways, complain that the fee is lower than the transfer fee or complain that the foal recording fee was too high.

“For horses with a Life Recording:
The transfer fee of $60 must be submitted with the USEF Lifetime Horse Recording Certificate signed by the last recorded owner(s) or a copy of a Bill of Sale signed by the last USEF recorded owner(s).
For horses with an Active Annual Recording:
The transfer fee of $60 must be submitted with a copy of a Bill of Sale signed by the last USEF recorded owner(s). The transfer fee will be waived if the member is upgrading the Annual Recording to a Life Recording ($125) when transferring.
For horses with an Inactive (Expired) Annual Recording:
The transfer fee of $60 is waived. The fee of $75 for Annual Recording or $200 for Life Recording must be submitted with a copy of a Bill of Sale signed by the last USEF recorded owner(s) and a completed USEF Horse Recording Application.
For horses with Horse ID (HID) numbers only:
No transfer fee. A copy of a Bill of Sale signed by the last USEF recorded owner(s) must be submitted.
Name change is $60
Choose either Life or Annual Horse Recording from below:
❑ Lifetime Recording of the Horse/Pony (Required for Passports). To qualify for age discount, proof of age must be provided (i.e. registration papers, coggins).
❑ a. $35 from birth to December 31st of year foaled.
❑ b. $85 for horses one year of age (from January 1st to December 31st of the first year after foaling).
❑ c. $160 for horses two years of age (from January 1st to December 31st of the second year after foaling).
❑ d. $200 for horses three years of age or older.
❑ $75 Annual Recording for 2007 (expires on November 30, 2007).
❑ B. Horse ID Number - (HID) NOT Eligible for USEF Awards”

#400

Just been to the PHR site.

The Silver Stirrup Awards program is exclusive to horses in the registry. Each year national, regional and state awards are presented to equestrian athletes competing in dressage, dressage sport horse, hunters, hunter breeding, jumpers, eventing and driving. In addition, the program recognizes leading sires, owners and breeders.

In order to be listed on the breeder rankings, the horse that wins the points has to be competing for HOY, if it isn’t registered with the PHR.
If you do both, you’ll have a lifetime number that is cross referenced in the PHR, and name changes won’t matter. The correct breeder will always in the database for those breeders who care enough to cross register their foals and their points will show up. Then the problem becomes new owners getting new numbers, and there has to be some way to make it counterproductive for that to happen–or economically unfeasible, as I’ve said before.

Maybe the new sales disclosure state laws that are starting to be enacted will have their effect on sales of horses that are not accurately represented to buyers, so there will be more incentive for the lifetime number and registration to stay with the horse.

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