THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[sporthorsefilly]

The cost of “fully registering a horse in its first year of life” with the USEF is $35.

Why register with PHR…why not? It is an American/USEF registry, and you can also compete for Silver Stirrup Awards. So why not? People have been on vacation, and all the shows have not yet been added to the horses files…also PHR gets the results AFTER USEF enters them.

I’m listed on both the breeder and owner USEF lists for DSHB and the sire of my mare is on the top sire list, for DSHB. My yearling is fully registered with USEF and you can search and find her results. She hasn’t appeared on PHR yet, but I spoke with Ken Ball, and it is in processing.

If breeders would foal register with USEF for $35, then show those youngsters they might really find that they would appear on the listing too! You can’t be in the game if you don’t register, it is that simple.

If you want to be listed, you have to be a member; and fully register the horse. If you are sending out semen from your stallion, include the USEF registration form for the foal with the contract. If you are breeding, then send in the USEF registration and name the foal. The number doesn’t change, and the buyers may actually appreciate your thoughtfulness.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

Yes, you can have it both ways. The fee is reduced and MANY times makes up for it because if ALL horses are lifetime recorded instead of less than 1/10 of them, the funds will be there. I would never record mine before, and now I record all. LOTS more money for the USEF.

A person can either pay the $130. to change the name & owner, OR just pay for the $75. year recording fee. Why bother with anything more than a year, when horses change hands so often. MANY though, don’t care about chasing points, so trash their lifetime number from the breeder, and just get a free one.

I really don’t know why I bother to lifetime record my foals, when it just gets trashed, and the horse gets a new free number.

[vineyridge]

The PHR also requires DNA testing for all breeding stock. However, if it’s done by another registry, they will accept the results.

If the registries would see to it that their foals didn’t leave inspection without a lifetime USEF number and a PHR membership, also lifetime, for a grand total of $110, and the DNA is cross referenced from the registry for all foals, there would be a lot of built in protection for buyers and breeders alike. Plus the awards and recognition that come from the PHR and the USEF listings.

This would, of course, have the most value for the most conscientious and elite breeders.

[sm1]

What I do not understand from the ranking is how so many horses who are listed as registered have unknown dams or damsires. There were also a lot of horses that didn’t claim registries, and a lot that didn’t list their registry numbers.

Is that a USEF recording problem?

[QUOTE=Janet;2611852]
Even when I have sent in A COPY OF THE PEDIGREE and registration papers, USEF manages to get it wrong.[/QUOTE]

The USDF answer to me was the SIRE and DAM was not in their database, in other words not registered with them (as in THEIR paperwork not on file). Therefore, unknown. So, I wonder if the USEF operates the same way?

Both USEF and USDF has “unknowns” with Thoroughbreds: they call the horse a xx then proceed to list unknown for sire and dam, so you know how crazy that is.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

The USEF has to fix the system. As long as an owner can get a new number, we will NEVER have a credible database, and the rankings will continue to be a joke. The way they are now, they are worse than nothing.

They need to require PROOF of who the horse is.

Regisration papers, bill of sale traceable to the previous owner and number, stallion breeding certificate, veterinary statement.

No proof, higher fee, AND they can’t list anything - breed, nothing.

[Oakstable]

I started a new thread on this subject, it is way off topic here.

[showjumpers66]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;2611216]
Don’t want to be unduly hostile, but all of those of you who are so proud of yourselves for breeding European WB sporthorses with great sires and dams leading to very high quality and high priced foals, please give some real examples of your national (GP), FEI and international successes. I’ll bet nobody but Pwynn can say “I’ve bred a double gold Pan Am medallist”. I’ve even bet nobody here can say “I’ve bred a Team horse.”[/QUOTE]

It is coming across as hostile. Give us a bit of time and we WILL be there. Our oldest young stock bred for the international level is 3 years old this year. We have 10 top notch 2 year olds. They are coming through the pipeline, but it takes time.

Do you place your your young horses with the top trainers?

yes

Are you willing to sacrifice the way Pwynn has to follow her vision?

Of course, but there are different sacrifices to be made for different circumstances. As a fellow breeder stated, those of us who are bringing in the world class breeding stock are strongly supporting the registries and their breeding programs and improving the quality of the motherlines here in the US. This helps not only the other breeders by increasing access to bloodlines that they could not afford access to previously, but also provides an avenue for better and better stock CONSISTENTLY for riders and trainers in the US.

I’ve been looking at the IJF and IHF database, and American breds do not shine. There are some, but not many. FEI level horses from America don’t exist that I can find.

I totally disagree. As an example, Hidden Creek and Blair Cudmore both have bred and/or owned American born Grand Prix jumpers. There are others. We are seriously lacking an adequate tracking/record keeping system which greatly hinders our ability to track the success of American bred horses.

[vineyridge]

Linda Allen addresses relevant issues in her Between Rounds article last week (?) in the Chronicle.

She points out that future American success in world competition is being adversely affected by the business side of horses. Trainers and Riders like Kent Farrington turn down invitations to compete for the Team because he can’t afford to lose the money and exposure he gets on the American circuit.

She also points out how thin America is at that level in both horses and riders.

And the most cogent point that she made, I think, is that extremely talented younger horses who might end up the next generation Judgements or Authentics are given top level training and competition by the big name trainers and then sold down the ranks at huge prices to be junior jumpers or A/O horses to people who can afford horses that are way better than the riders will ever be.

That is probably where most of the American breds with quality to compete internationally are ending up. (My comment)

[PineTreeFarm]

@showjumpers66;2612808

I totally disagree. As an example, Hidden Creek and Blair Cudmore both have bred and/or owned American born Grand Prix jumpers. There are others. We are seriously lacking an adequate tracking/record keeping system which greatly hinders our ability to track the success of American bred horses.

I have to disagree with you. The IJF- YJC has an extensive database available through their website. They require pedigree/registry info on all horses and you can’t register unless the sire is recorded with them. So good record keeping. But still there are few american bred horses in the database, let alone winning. Maybe 12% of the 7-8 are American Bred. I think the 4 yr old section - IJF is still limited to American bred horses but the rules from that program seem to be missing from the website…

[sm1]

[QUOTE=vineyridge;2612881]
And the most cogent point that she made, I think, is that extremely talented younger horses who might end up the next generation Judgements or Authentics are given top level training and competition by the big name trainers and then sold down the ranks at huge prices to be junior jumpers or A/O horses to people who can afford horses that are way better than the riders will ever be. [/QUOTE]

It’s just a tremondous cost to bring a young horse along. We have good dressage horses bred here and riders that have the desire, but the training/showing costs and the politics are astromonical obstacles. Putting young horse in training trying to qualifiy for Pan Am can cost $20,000 a month wintering in Wellington.

[Fred]

I haven’t bred a Pan Am Gold medal winner (yet) ;), but I have bred a winning Grand Prix Jumper - a FULL Thoroughbred, by my home-bred TB stallion A Fine Romance out of an OTTB mare, Macassa (Same Direction - Wet Blue (Arg).
This horse, now named South Bound, was already an Advanced level event horse, named My Romance.

Many of us have made huge sacrifices to follow our vision. In my case, it is the importance of the Thoroughbred in sport horse breeding and the Thoroughbred Sport Horse.

[Donella]

you’re just riding a warmblood breeding bubble that is like llamas or emus–selling breeding stock to other breeders based on paper. No, wait, that was the Arab bubble back when.

This is simply ridiculous. How can you compare them? WB’s are essentially the key to upper level success in Dressage, and often in Jumping/hunters. They are bred for it, and they do their job better than other top horses of other breeds. I don’t know WHY this is SOOOOOO hard to accept for other people. So …you want to be competative at the upper levels? Then be prepared to pay for it, if you really think the whole thing is just a fad and your chances of getting there with a weanling QH Belgian are similiar then you know what, I am at a loss and you are clearly out of touch with reality.
You may not see value in bloodlines ( which is really foolish) but if your sire is competing internationally and your dam is sired by the same time of horse ect ect…the chances of the foal being able to do so are astronomically larger than if you go out and buy a weanling of another breed ( or one of those paint x tb x twh called a “wb” types ect). Simply put, you are paying for that astronomically larger chance.

Supply and demand people…figure it out and GET OVER IT.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@Donella;2613231

WB’s are essentially the key to upper level success in Dressage, and often in Jumping/hunters. They are bred for it, and they do their job better than other top horses of other breeds.

Chanda once posted that she had some time at a big show, so she pulled the entries for the Hunter classes, and went thru them one at a time. (I believe it was not the 3’, but all of the others). She found only a handful of TBs. ALL of the rest were Warmbloods, or Warmblood/TB crosses.

[sm1]

[QUOTE=Donella;2613231]
WB’s are essentially the key to upper level success in Dressage, and often in Jumping/hunters. They are bred for it, and they do their job better than other top horses of other breeds. I don’t know WHY this is SOOOOOO hard to accept for other people. So …you want to be competative at the upper levels? Then be prepared to pay for it, if you really think the whole thing is just a fad… Supply and demand people…figure it out and GET OVER IT.[/QUOTE]

Maybe some people are looking for more of a challenge than simply putting in an FEI dressage test.

Then again, maybe the largest part of the dressage market will never do upper level work, but will stop at first level. Those are actually the facts. And let’s face it, virtually every friggin’ horse in the country of virtually any friggin’ breed should be able to put in a respectable score in a training level test. It ain’t rocket science

And after all is said and done, the USDF sponsors the All Breeds Awards program, for training level thru Grand Prix, for 50-something different breeds and registries.

[STF]

Do you thhhhhiiiiiiiiinkkkkkkkkkkkkk the reason that there are so many lower level riders is because they dont have the proper horse to get them up the levels?
From experience, there is a huge difference from riding a OTTB that is downhill, flat hock moving and low set necks, compared to a correctly bred WB that is up in front and NATRUALLY moves from behind through the back.
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…
When 2nd level requires that think called “collection” and so many cant take weight behind to “sit” for better collection due to bad conformation, well, ummmmm… I can see why so many think they have to stay a 1st level and below. They think its their bad riding that cant get their poor horsie up the levels when its really not proper traits needed.
No, now saying that some horses do it or not, but if you look at the breed end of year points, then you can see why the WB’s ARE in the high ranking, from Training level to Grand Prix.
Think about it…

[pwynnnorman]

@Donella;2613231

you’re just riding a warmblood breeding bubble that is like llamas or emus–selling breeding stock to other breeders based on paper. No, wait, that was the Arab bubble back when.

I think that was just an oddball bit of posting. I doubt many people see WBs as a mere fad. They are European horses bred for European sports. You can do reining and cutting on Arabs or Appaloosas, but most Europeans pay the big bucks to import Quarter Horses. Works the same way here, except I wish it weren’t so with hunters (where the TB type was what the judges sought–but the judges are trainers, too, and there’s just a lot more $$$ to be had in buying and selling WBs, so bye-bye the TB hunter…oh, and there’s that problem with TB rideability for ammys, of course :-). Oh, well. Way of the world.

[sm1]

[QUOTE=STF;2613365]
Do you thhhhhiiiiiiiiinkkkkkkkkkkkkk the reason that there are so many lower level riders is because they dont have the proper horse to get them up the levels?[/QUOTE]

In my opinion NO. I don’t know how much time and money you figure an adult ammy can or wants to put into training to get from training level to second level. And to what extent the adult ammy desires to take it out of regional/local/hobby venue to an international comparison (as is the case with FEI tests).

However, if the horse is holding them back: then by all means switch horses or breeds or trainers or whatever else you need to do to get to your goals.

Clearly, the USDF sends out the message all breeds can do dressage http://www.usdf.org/Contacts/AllBreeds.asp . Maybe not to satisfy your specifications, but perhaps to the owners satisfaction.

[STF]

Viney posted that, not Donella.

[STF]

In my opinion NO. I don’t know how much time you figure an adult ammy can or wants to put into training to get from training level to second level.

They would not have to put so much when they buy a horse that is bred and has the movements, conformation to do it. It comes easier.

And to what extent the adult ammy is taking it out of regional/local venue to an international level as is the case with FEI tests.

There are not many ammys I know that dont have GP dreams or desires. They THINK they cant do it, so they say there happy at lower levels, but I dont believe that.

Clearly, the USDF sends out the message all breeds can do dressage. Maybe not to satisfy your specifications, but perhaps to the owners satisfaction.

Yes ANY horse can do dressage, some can do it more easy than others.

[pwynnnorman]

@STF;2613365

Do you thhhhhiiiiiiiiinkkkkkkkkkkkkk the reason that there are so many lower level riders is because they dont have the proper horse to get them up the levels?
From experience, there is a huge difference from riding a OTTB that is downhill, flat hock moving and low set necks, compared to a correctly bred WB that is up in front and NATRUALLY moves from behind through the back.

Sorry, STF, but I have to call you out on that one, too.

Have you ever developed an FEI level horse? I have–three of 'em, in fact: an Appaloosa, a TB and a pony. The App I developed for his 55+ year old rider. The pony developed ME. The TB is my unsung superstar.

The TB was praised by many BNTs as a jumper – just about everyone who saw him thought he was a WB (lots of ooomph and air and uphillness, although not a toe-pointy, pretty mover).

Morgans, Connemaras, Saddlebreds–you name it have all carried their riders up the levels just as easily as WBs. The only difference is that, for them, WINNING is tough to do, given that the standard of perfection follows a WB model. Same problem with Lippizaners and the other baroque breeds. Had the Spanish sponsored the early dressage shows (I almost wrote “had they invented dressage,” but then I remember that, in a way, they did!), today’s winners would be of the Iberian type rather than the WB type.

Chances are, you meant something like this–but again, you didn’t qualify your statement to clarify its intent!

Oh, and then there’s the oft-stated problem with SITTING TO THAT WB carriage.

Fact is, you don’t need it to get to the very top of the sport of dressage. That’s why so many people LIKE the sport. You don’t have to buy your way up unless you want to be competitive. If you just want to enjoy developing your horse, dressage means training and any sound, sane beast can be trained.