THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[Ridge_Runner]

@STF;2613365

Do you thhhhhiiiiiiiiinkkkkkkkkkkkkk the reason that there are so many lower level riders is because they dont have the proper horse to get them up the levels?
From experience, there is a huge difference from riding a OTTB that is downhill, flat hock moving and low set necks, compared to a correctly bred WB that is up in front and NATRUALLY moves from behind through the back.
Hummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm…

Good God…can you let your breed bias show through any more? :no: Honest to God, I have nothing against WB’s in general but I’m quickly developing a bias against certain WB breeders!

To answer your question…no, I think people stay at the lower levels due to lack of time to train and lack of commitment to learn to ride a horse at that level. It is hard…really hard…to learn to ride even at second level correctly and even harder to buy a young horse and bring them along yourself. Been there and done that… Many people ride for fun…what a concept…and the vast majority of people do not care if they make it to the upper levels…they just want to have fun and many want to be stylish doing it…thus the vanity buys that Wynn talked about.

I can’t tell you how many overmounted ammie riders I’ve seen on high powered, huge moving, high strung WB’s who are so afraid of these horses that they won’t even take them on a trail ride. Honestly, with some of the temperaments I’ve seen on these horses, neither would I.

It is a shame to see someone spend the kind of money they spend on an uber talented fancy Euro WB and not be able to ride it…Or they ride it but they can’t sit the big trot so they are stuck at the lower levels. Get realistic…many of those uber talented horses you say you have are just not suitable for a lot of the amateurs in the sport…they are better off on their arabs, QH’s and TB’s who have smaller gaits and more forgiving temperaments. Can you picture your average adult amateur on Salinero…uh duh NOOOOOOO! They’d be killed in a minute. :lol:

Have you considered also that if WB’s were priced more in line with those horribly unsuitable breeds you are putting down like TB’s (gosh…does anyone remember Keen?), more people might try them? For your average working class person, paying 5 figures for a horse to have fun on is a significant expense and sometimes a second mortgage. Not everyone is well heeled enough to do it even if they want to.

[pwynnnorman]

Hey, DB, when you think about it, the sport probably woudn’t even exist in this country if you had to have a WB to accomplish something! There woudln’t be enough entries at the shows!

[appaloosalady]

Well said DDB!

[sm1]

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2613400]
those horribly unsuitable breeds you are putting down like TB’s (gosh…does anyone remember Keen?), more people might try them? [/QUOTE]

Oh good lord, that’s punishment enough for STF: having to live with the fact the only usa-bred olympic medal dressage horse we have is a gasp thoroughbred. And the same usa-bred TB Keen got the USA it’s first OLYMPIC MEDAL in dressage, an achievement that can never be taken away and replaced in the record books no matter how hard one tries. Break out the Aleve. Or Tylenol. Or Dewars double straight up…

[Ridge_Runner]

@sm;2613433

Oh good lord, that’s punishment enough for STF: having to live with the fact the only usa-bred olympic medal dressage horse we have in our history is a gasp thoroughbred. And the same usa-bred horse got the USA it’s first medal in dressage, an achievement that can never be taken away.

I knew Keen first hand and was a working student for Hilda right before the LA Games. He was a phenominal horse…one of the finest dressage horses ever… and even a mere mortal working student like me could ride him he was so kind. I did…and I treasure those memories.

[BelladonnaLily]

[QUOTE=sm;2613433]
Oh good lord, that’s punishment enough for STF: having to live with the fact the only usa-bred olympic medal dressage horse we have is a gasp thoroughbred. And the same usa-bred TB Keen got the USA it’s first OLYMPIC MEDAL in dressage, an achievement that can never be taken away and replaced in the record books no matter how hard one tries. Break out the Aleve. Or Tylenol. Or Dewars double straight up…[/QUOTE]

:lol:

[Graymaresrule]

LOL, am I the only one who remembers when there weren’t many WB’s competing in dressage?

[STF]

@sm;2613433

Oh good lord, that’s punishment enough for STF: having to live with the fact the only usa-bred olympic medal dressage horse we have is a gasp thoroughbred. And the same usa-bred TB Keen got the USA it’s first OLYMPIC MEDAL in dressage, an achievement that can never be taken away and replaced in the record books no matter how hard one tries. Break out the Aleve. Or Tylenol. Or Dewars double straight up…

Dont need to, but you need to educate yourself a lot more before coming to a battle with me on this subject only half cocked.

1. Hilda is super and actually one of the people who made a huge impact in my horse life. If you think Im mean and crude, I dont handle a candle to her! :lol: First you need to understand that Olympic Keen was years ago and the type of riding and styles have changed dramaticly. Keen was super, dont get me wrong and BUT also one of a kind. You are ignoring the Keens of the world have been super limited in qty if you look at the Olympic records, compeition records and overall history. I can pretty much tell you every horse that competed from the first Olympics (where the Swedes DID dominate even then…) till now.
   Even Hilda will tell you today that a lot has changed in the last 20 yrs on the horses and types. The competion has gotten more steep due to the more quality horses that are out there.
   YOU need to do your homework before trying to challenge me on theory or history on this subject. Research on this type of stuff is my passion.

[STF]

PS - Believe it or not, I even own a TB! gasp and the love of my life, Rhett, was a full blood TB. So again, your so lost on your knowledge or what you think of someone based on a internet BB. I even have a QH here and gasp a GRADE PONY!!! OMG!!! :lol:

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

The modern Warmbloods ARE TBs. They are just bred for gaits and jump, not racing. I hope many of our breeders do breed those TBs and other breeds again. We just got “lazy” and just used the race track rejects, so Europe did the job, starting with their local stock, and making the TB type.

The problem is that now, it just is such a small % of TBs that ARE the type for (I would say sport, but racing is a sport) dressage, hunters, jumping, etc. as the racing becomes more sprinter oriented.

There are good and bad in all breeds. Currently, the % suitable in warmbloods is just higher.

ORIGINALLY many began to ride those Warmbloods because THEY had the easier going brain - less sensitive than the TBs. That is no longer the case, so we see dressage riders going to the baroque breeds. The HUNTERS are actually looking for older type Warmbloods, if they are not still looking for TBs.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@carolprudm;2613486

LOL, am I the only one who remembers when there weren’t many WB’s competing in dressage?

That may have been true at one point only in the US, and only because there were practically no WBs in the country at the time.
I’m not sure why people feel the need to somehow degnigrate the WB as a sporthorse. They have always been the preferred dressage horse, for the very obvious reason that a large number of them are bred to do just that.

There has never been a time when the TB dominated Showjumping.
Like wise, contrary to popular belief on these boards, there has never been a time when the OTTB dominated Eventing, a cursory look at Olympic results, World Championship results and the yearly top ten at Badminton and Burghley (the holy grails of eventing) for the last 40, nay 50, years will disavow anyone of that notion. The preferred eventing horse has always been a crossbred horse, with ideally 75%+ blood, that horse has been more often than not what’s nowadays called an ISH, or in times past the Irish “halfbred”.

Even if you confine your world view to what happens on the North American continent (as many here seem to do), you’ll find that the first World Championship medal won by the US in eventing, way back in 1970, was won by Jimmy Wofford, he was mounted on one such horse.
Plus ca change… and all that Jazz.

Surely you people can find something better to do than engage in silly TB v WB games. The are both magnificent types of horses, why anyone feels the need to proof that one is superior to the other is beyond me.

[STF]

Maybe here in America, but not for others.
Sweden has been breeding SWB’s since 1661 and keeping records of what worked and what does not.
They mix TB in there, as I do too. I like a lighter/modern type more than the big heavy old style type.
Im all for any horse that can do the job, but it has been proven that correct angles, proper muscles strctures, gaits and brian can be a herditary thing. That is why breed indexs, blups and such have been kept to look at those stallions to see what postive traits they are producing in offspring, etc. So, point is, this has been something people have been looking at for a long time and that is why the horses are so much easier to go and train they they use to be.

Edited to add I was addressing Fairview post

[STF]

@Drvmb1ggl3;2613597

That may have been true at one point only in the US, and only because there were practically no WBs in the country at the time.
I’m not sure why people feel the need to somehow degnigrate the WB as a sporthorse. They have always been the preferred dressage horse, for the very obvious reason that a large number of them are bred to do just that.

There has never been a time when the TB dominated Showjumping.
Like wise, contrary to popular belief on these boards, there has never been a time when the OTTB dominated Eventing, a cursory look at Olympic results, World Championship results and the yearly top ten at Badminton and Burghley (the holy grails of eventing) for the last 40, nay 50, years will disavow anyone of that notion. The preferred eventing horse has always been a crossbred horse, with ideally 75%+ blood, that horse has been more often than not what’s nowadays called an ISH, or in times past the Irish “halfbred”.

Even if you confine your world view to what happens on the North American continent (as many here seem to do), you’ll find that the first World Championship medal won by the US in eventing, way back in 1970, was won by Jimmy Wofford, he was mounted on one such horse.
Plus ca change… and all that Jazz.

Surely you people can find something better to do than engage in silly TB v WB games. The are both magnificent types of horses, why anyone feels the need to proof that one is superior to the other is beyond me.

I dont know the Eventing history as I know the dressage history, but that is interesting. I would have always thought it was TB blood more than anything.

[vineyridge]

Another reason to join the PHR

Points are accumulated for HOY ONLY when the owner is a USEF member. Lots of folks in all disciplines ride and don’t join the Federation. Was thinking about eventing, for instance, where membership in anything isn’t required until you reach a certain level. And you can join the USEA without joining the USEF and compete up to certain levels. Which means that no points would be recorded for sires whose get aren’t owned by USEF members.

How many of the riders/owners just don’t join in dressage and h/j? Aren’t there non-member show fees for h/j? And does the USDF work like USEA? Which would mean no points are recorded for a huge number of horses based on the USEF membership requirement.

If the breeders registered their foals with the PHR, the sire WOULD get all the points he’s entitled to, even if the owner-rider hadn’t joined the USEF and was just showing lower level or non-member.

[Oakstable]

[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;2613597]
That may have been true at one point only in the US, and only because there were practically no WBs in the country at the time.
I’m not sure why people feel the need to somehow degnigrate the WB as a sporthorse. They have always been the preferred dressage horse, for the very obvious reason that a large number of them are bred to do just that.

There has never been a time when the TB dominated Showjumping.
Like wise, contrary to popular belief on these boards, there has never been a time when the OTTB dominated Eventing, a cursory look at Olympic results, World Championship results and the yearly top ten at Badminton and Burghley (the holy grails of eventing) for the last 40, nay 50, years will disavow anyone of that notion. The preferred eventing horse has always been a crossbred horse, with ideally 75%+ blood, that horse has been more often than not what’s nowadays called an ISH, or in times past the Irish “halfbred”.

Even if you confine your world view to what happens on the North American continent (as many here seem to do), you’ll find that the first World Championship medal won by the US in eventing, way back in 1970, was won by Jimmy Wofford, he was mounted on one such horse.
Plus ca change… and all that Jazz.

Surely you people can find something better to do than engage in silly TB v WB games. The are both magnificent types of horses, why anyone feels the need to proof that one is superior to the other is beyond me.[/QUOTE]

I so agree with you. Why this thread continues is beyond me.

[Donella]

I don’t know about some of you, but I am sick and tired of having to listen to the “tb’s are the best at every sport in the world” type tirades by people on here for no reason other than they happen to own one or more of them…they are, I am sure, the most popular breed on this board. It’s funny how people like to bring up the EXCEPTION to the rule ie keen ect as a sort of attempt to say that WB’s are over rated and we should all just go out and get an ottb. I am glad you love your ottb’s. I love my non traditional dressage breed ( the friesian) but im not delusional enough to try and argue that because a few of them have been short listed and #1 open HOY at fei levels they are a much better choice for the competative dressage world than wb’s. The whole reason you are even mentioning keen is because he was the EXCEPTION, not the rule. If I could only find one or two wb’s that competed internationally then you could tell me they are overrated.

You like your TB’s …great! But don’t try to seriously argue that they are the second coming in the sport horse world. They are bred to run races and that is what they do best.

I am sick and tired of listening to this constant “wb’s are all hype, wb’s are not that great, wb’s are overrated”, and because those claims are contrary to the reality that WB’s dominate the sport world, it just ends up sounding like super sour grapes.:no:

[STF]

I love my non traditional dressage breed ( the friesian)

After yrs of watching Kerry Sabine-Schute ride the Fresians at upper levels, I would have never guessed they were not made for dressage. But that woman could make a mule piaffe well if she wanted to! :lol:

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@STF;2613618

I dont know the Eventing history as I know the dressage history, but that is interesting. I would have always thought it was TB blood more than anything.

Undoubtedly lots of TB blood, I stated such in the post.
That is however not the same thing as a TB, or an OTTB, a point some people can’t seem to firmly grasp. Countries like GB, Ire and Fra have always been overrun with OTTBs, given they are racing mad countries with sizable TB breeding industries, yet when they wanted a top eventer they more often than not went with a sporthorse. There had to be a reason for that, and it wasn’t for lack of available OTTBs.

[Donella]

Then again, maybe the largest part of the dressage market will never do upper level work, but will stop at first level. Those are actually the facts. And let’s face it, virtually every friggin’ horse in the country of virtually any friggin’ breed should be able to put in a respectable score in a training level test. It ain’t rocket science

AHHH bingo!
I just went back and I keep noticing this same sentiment…so many people are happy and content on their random breed of choice, putzing away at training, 1st ect…well again, I think it has been made fairly clear by the breeders of these 10 k plus wb weanling, thay they are NOT breeding for that market. They are breeding horses that should be competative medium to upper level mounts and providing a well bred, competative alternative to the euro import, so if those are not your goals…again, why would you even concern yourself with what it costs to buy a mount bred for the upper levels???

[stacey_ellis]

Wow La Net - you are catching up with Suerte here!!!:winkgrin::winkgrin:

Stacey