THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[vineyridge]

Drum is mostly right, BUT, because of the endurance and steeplechase requirements high level event horses were always very, very high percentage TB. From 3/4 to 31/32.

There’s an interview with Ingrid Klimke in the online Horse Magazine from Australia. She talks alot about training for both eventing and dressage. She mentions that she’s finding more German horses with thoroughbred and has tried one of Friedrich Butts Hanoverians who won the * * at Luhmuhlen. Horse has a Persian name starting with A and with some xx in it, and she describes him as a full Thoroughbred, even though he’s branded Hanoverian.

Interesting article, and well worth reading.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/K/Klimke,%20INgrid/Trainingwith/Ingrid.html

[Ridge_Runner]

@Drvmb1ggl3;2613597

I’m not sure why people feel the need to somehow degnigrate the WB as a sporthorse. They have always been the preferred dressage horse, for the very obvious reason that a large number of them are bred to do just that.

Again…not denigrating but pointing out what I see…and quite tired of the open bashing of other breeds. Like Fairview said…some of the modern type WB’s are TB’s on steroids…huge gaits and very reactive…certainly at the top of dressage and jumping competition still but not easy horses for your average adult ammie to ride…and way too much horse for adult beginner types. The old type WB yes…I agree…much calmer and had to be pushed a bit more and much kinder.

Don’t forget though that in the grand scheme of things that WB’s are still relatively new on the scene for dressage. Baroque and Iberian horses way pre date the use of WB’s for dressage by centuries…think lippizans and the Spanish Riding School. Warmbloods are certainly more common in competitive dressage at the upper levels but the Iberians are still competitive internationally and with those Iberian breeders now focused on the dressage types…you will see more and more of them I think.

My coach, an R judge(who rides an Idocus daughter and an Andalusian) is helping most of her ammie clients looking for horses to get Iberians. She feels the temperaments are more solid and that they are easier for most people to ride and can still be very competitive. Again, she’s not anti WB at all but she wants her students mounted on suitable horses so they have fun and do well.

STF…Hilda is not mean…she is a very kind person. You just have to get to know her better. She once took a lonely working student home to her family’s house for Christmas when she had no where else to go. She is a tough hard working lady but under that outer layer is a softie. Yes, I knew her back in the infancy of WB breeding in the US but I’ll never forget her lineup of FEI horses in her barn when I was there…Chrysos (Trak/Westfalian with a good dose of Arab), Chronos (half TB by Chrysos), Keen (TB), Tieken (arab), and Pasha (Hungarian TB) and how she told me that any breed with the proper conformation and a good temperament could do dressage. Doesn’t she ride a National Show Horse at GP now also…a saddlebred/arab?

[Ridge_Runner]

@Donella;2613683

Then again, maybe the largest part of the dressage market will never do upper level work, but will stop at first level. Those are actually the facts. And let’s face it, virtually every friggin’ horse in the country of virtually any friggin’ breed should be able to put in a respectable score in a training level test. It ain’t rocket science

AHHH bingo!
I just went back and I keep noticing this same sentiment…so many people are happy and content on their random breed of choice, putzing away at training, 1st ect…well again, I think it has been made fairly clear by the breeders of these 10 k plus wb weanling, thay they are NOT breeding for that market. They are breeding horses that should be competative medium to upper level mounts and providing a well bred, competative alternative to the euro import, so if those are not your goals…again, why would you even concern yourself with what it costs to buy a mount bred for the upper levels???

Well, is that is so, why would STF suggest those people would do better if they just ditched their downhill, bad moving OTTB’s and got a WB like hers? If her horses are truly destined to the upper levels and the pros, why even care what the ammies are riding?

Not saying you aren’t right but it sure didn’t sound like that in her post that openly bashed TB’s.

For the record, I am not a TB person at all. I am just not anti any breed and hate to see the kind of snobbery and bias being put out certain people on this forum who say they breed “quality” horses worth high prices…etc…ad nauseum…like no one else does? If anything that kind of crap turns people off on WB’s…why not just give the breed bashing a rest?

[STF]

@stacey ellis;2613688

Wow La Net - you are catching up with Suerte here!!!:winkgrin::winkgrin:

Stacey

If you think this is long go back and look at the 100DT thread for amount 4 yrs ago. :lol:

[STF]

@vineyridge;2613689

Drum is mostly right, BUT, because of the endurance and steeplechase requirements high level event horses were always very, very high percentage TB. From 3/4 to 31/32.

There’s an interview with Ingrid Klimke in the online Horse Magazine from Australia. She talks alot about training for both eventing and dressage. She mentions that she’s finding more German horses with thoroughbred and has tried one of Friedrich Butts Hanoverians who won the * * at Luhmuhlen. Horse has a Persian name starting with A and with some xx in it, and she describes him as a full Thoroughbred, even though he’s branded Hanoverian.

Interesting article, and well worth reading.
http://www.horsemagazine.com/ARTICLES/K/Klimke,%20INgrid/Trainingwith/Ingrid.html

Anky even states in her “Winning ways” CD that she and Sief prefer more TB in their horses as well.

[STF]

STF…Hilda is not mean…she is a very kind person.

Not mean at all. She just tells it like it is and could care less what others think. I love her!

Doesn’t she ride a National Show Horse at GP now also…a saddlebred/arab?

Yes, for a client she does.

And yes, any horse with the right conformation and mind can do dressage and do ok. Only certain one will wow us. But that is in any breed.

[ahf]

Surely you people can find something better to do than engage in silly TB v WB games. The are both magnificent types of horses, why anyone feels the need to prove that one is superior to the other is beyond me.

As usual, you are the voice of reason, and with that wonderful quote, my new best friend.

[shaft0463]

so it requires a WB to do the highest levels of dressage, huh? apparently no one told the spanish riding school that! :lol::lol::lol:

some of us DO ride dressage for our own pleasure and dont need to show, much less score an 80% at third level on a $50k horse, to be happy with our progress. this ammy would much rather own a sane horse that didnt cost more than my car and can also trail ride, jump, hack bareback, etc.

i could have chosen to purchase a nicely-bred WB foal to bring up myself. i chose not to. i chose instead to breed my mare to a stallion i love and who compliments her. not everyone NEEDS a WB to make them feel happy with their progress doing dressage.

[Ridge_Runner]

@STF;2613797

And yes, any horse with the right conformation and mind can do dressage and do ok. Only certain one will wow us. But that is in any breed.

Yes absolutely…only some will have the wow factor. I remember my first wow factor dressage horse I saw was Seldom Seen…amazing pony. Ahlerich…wow! Keen…incredible! Salinero doesn’t do it for me…but Matine sure does! Lovely lovely mare. Invasor…loved him! I see the Wow factor in many horse of many types in all disciplines and I am impressed with any horse that can do a respectable FEI test as I know how hard it is to do it. :yes:

[STF]

so it requires a WB to do the highest levels of dressage, huh? apparently no one told the spanish riding school that! :lol::lol::lol:

No, even Ernst Hoyos was quoted saying that almost every horse can learn all the GP movements, its just if they cant put it together enough for the ring.

some of us DO ride dressage for our own pleasure and dont need to show, much less score an 80% at third level on a $50k horse, to be happy with our progress.

And there is NOTHING wrong with that either. Each person has different goals and draems.

i could have chosen to purchase a nicely-bred WB foal to bring up myself. i chose not to. i chose instead to breed my mare to a stallion i love and who compliments her. not everyone NEEDS a WB to make them feel happy with their progress doing dressage.

Nobody said that. We just were saying that the end of year points are controlled 95% by very well bred WB horses.
Same thing as a car. Some people are ok with Buick and others want a Porsche.

[PineTreeFarm]

@STF;2613919

Nobody said that. We just were saying that the end of year points are controlled 95% by very well bred WB horses.
Same thing as a car.

How did you arrive at the 95% number. And what discipline do you mean?

Can’t be hunters as about 35% are German or Dutch Warmblood, Unknown sire Unknown dam. So how can they be ‘very well bred’?

[STF]

Talking more of Jumpers and Dressage.
Sorry, should have clarified.

[pwynnnorman]

We just were saying that the end of year points are controlled 95% by very well bred WB horses.

And 99% by people who can afford to do what it takes to earn those points. You do accept the high correlation between WB ownership (especially in dressage–and probably in other sports at the upper levels) and income, yes?

There’s a thread over on the H-J BB right now about cheap horses who went on to do great things. It reminds me how we’ll never be able to parcel out the financial state of the owner/rider from the horse’s success, especially in dressage. People who can’t afford that expensive “ideal” dressage horse may very well have an “off-breed” horse that could do just as well, but can’t SHOW ANYONE THAT.

It’s, unfortunately, that one trait about horse “sports” that water-down the “sport” aspect, philosophically speaking…alas. We’ll just never know who is really “the best” in the same way track and field or other, less expensive, sports can. The WB type is the ideal, for historical reasons as well as physical ones, but on any given day, what horse is “the best” most definitely need NOT be a WB because in its ideal form, dressage is about more than just movement and type. (Thank goodness.)

Was it Rembrandt or Bonfire who looked and moved like a Saddlebred? And what of Rusty’s movement compared to, say, that incredible near-black mare everyone is awed about right now (name begins with a “W” I think). Proof that even at the highest of levels, it about a lot more than we’re implying here.

[Edgewood]

@pwynnnorman;2614393

And 99% by people who can afford to do what it takes to earn those points. You do accept the high correlation between WB ownership (especially in dressage–and probably in other sports at the upper levels) and income, yes?

But Pwynn, I see that as even MORE an issue in the Hunter Jumper world. I am amazed at HOW incredibly expensive Hunters are if they are to be competitive at the A or AA shows. I think that they are WAY more expensive than the average Dressage horse who is a WB and can score well at USDF shows. My gosh, I know that hunter people often by “prospects” for $25,000-30,000 who haven’t shown and are just jumping crossrails and turn them around in 6 months to a year for double or triple that (if the horse is super fancy and jumps well).

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

The money is definitely in the Hunters. Look at just the show costs. Many compete each week/weekend, dropping 5 figures a month - just for show expenses.

[STF]

@Fairview Horse Center;2614613

The money is definitely in the Hunters. Look at just the show costs. Many compete each week/weekend, dropping 5 figures a month - just for show expenses.

VERY! What they spend of 2-3 shows a year, they could buy a super, super nice prospect.

[juliab]

[QUOTE=STF;2614658]
VERY! What they spend of 2-3 shows a year, they could buy a super, super nice prospect.[/QUOTE]

and still have to spend a boatload if they want to do anything with that “super nice prospect”

[inmotion]

Thank you Edgewood

After reading all the 10,000$ threads and this one…and being a hunter myself, I couldn’t agree more seperating the hunters from the other sports. Apples and oranges. I’ve bought a few OTTB’s and sold them into wealthy homes where they could move on in the big hunters, all have and are doing well…from confo horses to jrs. The money to compete is the issue. I can place my “kids” where they shine. I am dabbling in breeding…hunters…and have babies that would take 3 times the discussed price for me to even blink. All my horses are TB’s, I wish and am breeding outside the race lines and pure hunter- jumper lines. My main mare you have to go 3 generations to find a horse that raced. Papered? Nope. I don’t care. I want a product.

You do have to look at the people and past their financial situation, consider also their horseman abilities and training resources. there are so many factors. I’ve always considered myself a manager of the wonderful animals that were and are in my life. I micro-manage everything to produce and develope what I envision for them. Is money an issue???..yeah I quess…but my goal is to put out good solid citizens that are happy, talented and care for their riders. If I can keep making enough money to keep making hunters up, I’m happy. They do cost alot to keep the way I want them kept, but I wouldn’t have it any other way. I feel it is my responcability to do the best by them I can.

As far as who’s the best??? any horse that meets my criteria of being happy, safe and working in their sport/for their owner…is the best…at any price.

and kudo’s to the producers of horses/ponies that do go to the top, thanks again, to the management skills and visions of the people that made up the lucky animal! Keep up the good work!

Mary

[Valentina_32926]

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2605166]
What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.[/QUOTE]
Because a breeder owns a stallion doesn’t make it the right match for their mares. And I’d guess MOST people have had to feed hay to horses constantly outside with the droughts we’ve had recently.
Conversely - what about semen over 2K a pop for really popular (i.e. SUPER nice) stallions?
I prefer to keep my mares in a stall so they acclimated when they show - better for babies to get accustomed to this too.
Inspection costs need to be considered - the better the babies do the better the stallion/mare “rating” Keur, Ster, etc. - otherwise why bother to breed warmbloods - why not a breed or “half breed” which doesn’t need to be registered?
And yes - those numbers are HIGHER for many small breeders and don’t include things like Land/barn/fencing costs. I actually sold a breeding which was based on cost plus a SMALL profit - and was glad I did or I’d have lost money.

[Auventera_Two]

@STF;2614658

VERY! What they spend of 2-3 shows a year, they could buy a super, super nice prospect.

And then do what with that super nice prospect? Dump more money into it make the horse rideable and showable, that’s what.

You can spend anywhere from $50 - $100 + dollars entry fee for an endurance ride, depending on the mileage you ride. Then you pay your camping fee, park sticker, trail pass, all the gas for your rig to and from, your supplies, electrolytes, mashes, etc. and you’ve just downloaded $250 for one day of riding. And many people do this every couple of weeks. And that doesn’t even look at HRMs, GPSs, and all the other gadgets generally needed to be successful.

I guess I don’t understand the point about competition fees. They are expensive, no matter what discipline, unless you just show local 5 dollar classes.