[QUOTE=STF;2613797]
And yes, any horse with the right conformation and mind can do dressage and do ok. Only certain one will wow us. But that is in any breed.[/QUOTE]
Finally. And finally in line with the message that USDF gives http://www.usdf.org/Contacts/AllBreeds.asp , that all breeds can do dressage.
But, have you SEEN what it costs to show at a big AA Hunter show??? The costs you are quoting up above are more similar to the costs I might incur showing at a USDF Dressage show.
Hunter shows, especially BIG Hunter shows, cost A LOT more. Classes that cost $70-100 a pop (so 2 over fences and 1 flat is $300), stabling (I have heard quoted $70-100/day at big AA shows), lots of “other” fees. Most hunter riders have a coach too. And most big hunter shows last for 4-7 days straight (and people show each day). So they are dropping at least a $1000 per show, sometimes much more, and many do it weekly or every other week.
I remember a thread on the H/J forum and there were A LOT of people who said they spent in excess of $30,000/year showing.
[QUOTE=Drvmb1ggl3;2613597]
WB… They have always been the preferred dressage horse, for the very obvious reason that a large number of them are bred to do just that.[/QUOTE]
You must mean always as in around WWII ? Excerpts from http://www.worlddressage.com/history.htm :
Ancient Greeks: Beginning of dressage. Well let’s call a spade a spade and move on, no euro WBs there.
“Renaissance:The Spanish, the Barb, and the Lusitanian horse held preference over other breeds because of their ability to perform the classical airs.”
"14th thru 16th centuries: the problematic heaviness of the Italian warhorse contributed to schooling problems and led the Italians to use more force and powerful training equipment. In 1502 the Spanish brought their horses to Italy. Within fifty years of their arrival, the Neapolitan horse became lighter, sleeker, and a more tractable mount, and with the Spanish came the gineta style of riding. "
"Baroque period: The Iberian horse gained a foothold and was in demand throughout Austria, Germany, and the Holy Roman Empire. "
So you must mean ALWAYS in regards to a tiny fraction of dressage history, which is a history spanning over 2,000 years. I believe Iberians have the lead over the WBs regarding ALWAYS. And I’m waiting for the euro WBs to tackle their high school dressage work, that would be interesting as it really is also dressage…
An interesting sidenote…the Spanish Ginette (thus the “gineta” style of riding)…a spanish horse now extinct in it’s homeland…was one that was shipped in large quantities to the New World in the 15th and 16th Centuries by the Spanish. The only place you will find horses of this type today is here in America in the Colonial Spanish horse strains. Also shipped were Barbs, Spanish Barbs, Proto Andalusians, and Sorraia horses but the vast majority sent over were the “peasant” horses that are now extinct in their homeland.
I always find it interesting that so many people forget that dressage is a very old discipline and the horses used for centuries were not the same used today for competitive riding for the most part.
I’d have to agree with Inmotion here.
Hunters certainly can go for a lot, but it’s by TYPE, not breed. WBs are more popular now because it’s a trainer-driven industry and WBs are more profitable, but as Inmotion said, you can still find (or BREED, in fact–there are still plenty of TB and TBx breeders out there doing very healthy business producing hunter prospects) the right type of TB and sell it very well–without having paid much for it at all…and at a very young, profitable age, too–those good, ol’ (I’m being a bit facetious) “3- and 4-year-old young hunter” divisions provide a nifty little showplace for the type.
Hunters put the premium on type (including training, style, movement, looks, temperament), not on pedigree. So that’s gives the hungry trainer or poor owner/working student/equitation hopeful the opportunity to use their eyes instead of their wallets to get into the game. (Paying for the game itself, however, is a different story, but that’s why turning that great typey prospect with the packer mentality over for a nice profit is the bread-and-butter program for quite a few less-well-heeled folks. Can’t do that in dressage, alas.)
I always find it interesting that so many people forget that dressage is a very old discipline and the horses used for centuries were not the same used today for competitive riding for the most part.
Me, too. It really helps to put things in their proper perspective, doesn’t it. The Germans didn’t invent dressage, but they have managed to define it on the world stage. Oh, well. We Americans can still boast of (and export) our reining and cutting :D.
Wow this thread has unexpectedly gone on and on. Why don’t you try something relatively safe as a topic like the 100 day test, Oldenberg NA vs GOV or Amy Tryon.
We are also exporting our American heritage breeds. 
I have another going to the UK this Fall…a broodmare in foal to my stallion…and I have a buyer in Australia trying to raise funds to import a stallion prospect…a two year old colt I bought as a resale prospect.
Does anyone else remember the GM Between Rounds column where he talked about dressage during his competitive years? There was a German School of Dressage and a French school with different training methods apparently. He pointed out that the French had let the Germans overwhelm them in the dressage worlld and that that was really a loss to equestrians as their methods had a lot to offer.
I don’t recall that article but I am truly blessed to work with a coach who has a solid grounding in both schools and trained in Spain, Portugal and Germany under various masters like Nuno and later Reiner Klimke. She uses the French/Spanish style to start the youngsters…to get the flexibility, softness, and their backs up first and the German school to add brillance for the competition arena…as she explained to me. I can tell you that the french/spanish style work she has taught me with my stallion has made a huge difference in him and now we are adding the brilliance…and the gaits/work he has been giving us are mind boggling…
I love the way you word things Pwynnorman! Thank you.
Vineyridge, I remember all that. I was lessoning with Dressage and CT instructors and reading everything. The area I was in boasted Michele Vermulan and a few other wonderful riders from the French School. If I’m not mistaken the French riders were brought here to teach and work with us (US riders) by phalentrophers (I can’t spell and am too lazy for spell check). You could go to Dressage shows and SEE the difference and world infuence on individuals.
I loved Seldom Seen, and Keen was my favorite…I feel very fortunate to of seen the old greats. I have to say and this is just MHO, I started to see our riders changing and not for the better…We would of done well learning from the French. I loved the “lightness”, sensitivity and artistic quality about them. I switched to hunters.
the Italian’s had a lot to offer as well.
Wow am I way off topic now.
Mary
A few pages back Vineyridge said:
Quote:
I’ve been looking at the IJF and IHF database, and American breds do not shine. There are some, but not many. FEI level horses from America don’t exist that I can find.
Someone disagreed and said it was the fault of the ‘database’. I pointed out that the YJC and IJF have their own database and have a recorded stallion list. I looked at the listed of American bred horses in one age category and saw a low percentage.
I just got an email frim YJC announcing a breeders award and listing a
very small number of horses/breeders that are eligible. The list is for the Eastern League only but it’s still a low %
I’ve pasted in the email below:
Young Jumper Championships Announces Newsprint Farm American Breeder Awards
Georgetown, KY–August 9, 2007 – The Young Jumper Championships has announced the creation of the YJC Newsprint Farm American Breeder Awards. The Young Jumper Championships will award a total of $10,000 to the breeders of the highest placed American-bred horses in each age group from the three YJC League Finals. Each breeder will receive a check for $1,000, with an additional $1,000 presented to the overall leading breeder for the season, beginning with the YJC Eastern League Finals at the Hampton Classic, August 28-September 2, 2007, and the YJC Wild Turkey Farm Western League Finals at Showpark All Seasons, August 29-September 2, 2007 in Del Mar, CA. The YJC Midwestern League Finals will be held during the Kentucky National, September 26-30, 2007 in Lexington, KY.
“These awards are possible due to the vision and generosity of Danny Magill and Newsprint Farm,” said YJC President Linda Allen. “We canft thank her enough for her ongoing support of the International Jumper Futurity, the Young Jumper Championships, and American sport horse breeders over the years.”
The breeders of the following horses will be eligible for the awards based on performance in the YJC Eastern League Finals:
Horse Sire Owner Breeder
5-year-olds
AK 47 Magnum Tatra Farm Tatra Farm
Herock Cruising Christian Currey M/M Brownlee Currey
Hidden Creek Laramie Landjunge / Liquid Asset Hidden Creek Farm Hidden Creek Farm
Memento Mori Socrates Alyse Best Muldoon Alyse Best Muldoon
Napolean Magnum Tatra Farm Tatra Farm
Vendeta d’Aztlan Ohorn Alexis Castillo Alexis Castillo
Victory Celebration Calino Victory Lane Farm Lassergut Farm
Vixen Iroko Lee Miller Lee Miller
6-Year-Olds
Adonis Magnum Natalie Nicodema Tatra Farm
Class Cloud Class Secret Mede Cahaba Stable and Stud Mede Cahaba Stable and Stud
Hidden Creek Remarkable Limerick Hidden Creek Farm Hidden Creek Farm
Lariat Limerick Sandron Hidden Creek Farm
Nicholas Marius Claudius Raining Stone Farm & Wembley Farm Ani Shaker
No Worries D’Accord II Barbara Rowland Barbara Rowland
Rendition Rio Grande John T. Gillien John T. Gillien
Ricochet R Johnson LRJ Enterprises Inc Laurie Jakubauskas
Utmost ISF Contango Cathy Gerhart Iron Spring Farm
Winchester Magnum Tatra Farm Tatra Farm
7/8-Year-Olds
Blue Danube Hamar Tatra Farm Tatra Farm
Moet Walk Obscur II Tatra Farm Tatra Farm
The list of breeders eligible for awards based on performance in the Western and Midwestern YJC League Finals will be announced as entries are received from the show offices.
The International Jumper Futurity and Young Jumper Championships was founded in 1988 to foster the development of international caliber show jumpers here in the U.S. For more information about the Young Jumper Championships and the International Jumper and Dressage Futurity, visit the website at www.youngjumpers.com, email, or call 502-535-6787.
That was me and it is a bit of a mis-quote. I was not talking about the YJC/IJF database, but the USEF database. Only a small percentage of upper level jumpers in the US actually go through the YJC/IJF … hopefully it will continue to grow leaps and bounds as it is a great tool. At this point, though, it proves nothing to me about Americans not producing Grand Prix jumpers.
These American bred TB’s came to mind while cleaning stalls in the sweltering heat
Idle Dice
Jet Run
Touch of Class
Tomboy
The Bonne Nuit (French) line:
Good News
Good Twist
Gem Twist
better and better
Night Owl
Night Before Last
Laser
Might Tango
Bally Cor
JJ Babu
Ah, but those grand old TBs were in the days when the Europeans didn’t control course design and when we had the old European cavalry guys as Team Coaches.
How would I know you meant the USEF database when you were responding to a statement about the YJF/YJC database?
In any event it would be great if you could find some American Bred Jumpers on the 2007 USEF Grand Prix Jumper list. I took a look at the top 50 and a fair number of them have breeders listed. One has an Amerian Breeder plus I did find a (gasp) TB in the top 50 so that’s probably American Bred and we know Fred has an offspring on the list. Using the top 50 takes us down to winnngs of about $24,000. So where are the winning American Bred GP jumpers?
The YJC/IJF offers a great opportunity to showcase up and coming talented jumpers, but it is not a database for who has bred Grand Prix showjumpers. I am not sure why vineyridge was looking there for the information. There is just not a good database in the US for tracking this information reliably. Most of the time, we have to wait to hear about it in an article after a big win. Some examples, though are Iron Spring Farm’s Judgement, the Cudmore’s compete several American bred jumpers internationally, and Hidden Creek also has homebreds competing at that level.
vineyridge’s post -
I’ve been looking at the IJF and IHF database, and American breds do not shine. There are some, but not many. FEI level horses from America don’t exist that I can find.
my response -
I totally disagree. As an example, Hidden Creek and Blair Cudmore both have bred and/or owned American born Grand Prix jumpers. There are others. We are seriously lacking an adequate tracking/record keeping system which greatly hinders our ability to track the success of American bred horses.
Young Jumper Database - http://www.sport-horse.org/cgi-bin/start.cgi/yjc/standings.html
First of all, I’ve just spent time over at the YJC database and have opened the records on every stallion they have listed in their leading sires section. From that, I have to apologize, as Hidden Creek and Bannockburn and Tatra are models for successful US breeders. They enter horses or their horses are entered, and they do well with them.
The reason I used that database is because it is limited to one discipline in which the Europeans have dominated almost totally for years, it has information on sires and country of birth, and it has short pedigrees. The managers are trying very hard to make the database useful to breeders and buyers, and serious breeders and owners of International hopefuls are the category of folks who will sign up for the program. Those are the folks that can and will spend the money to campaign young horses. I might add that quite a few of the best YJC participants are doing extremely well in GPs “in the real world”. From last year, Apache and ESO are examples.
The database isn’t perfect and I found some errors and gaps, but there really is a lot of good information on breeders, owners, sires, and damsires, registries and countries of origin.
OK, I waded through 19 pages but didn’t read on after this… STF, I think that’s EXACTLY what Pwynn was thinking. Pwynn, I met you very briefly many years ago. I was unfortunately hooked up with a real shmuck who I ran from as soon as I realized what a ^&%! he was but I recall you had very high expectations, and a lot of knowledge and foresight to back up those expectations. Looks like you were right!
Since I did not grow up in this country, my take on the cost of raising horses here is skewed, and since I have seen spectacular athletes in almost every breed I will stay out of the fray… back to your regularly scheduled catfight.:lol:
The WB type is the ideal, for historical reasons as well as physical ones, but on any given day, what horse is “the best” most definitely need NOT be a WB because in its ideal form, dressage is about more than just movement and type. (Thank goodness.)
Ahh, yes, accuracy and correctness will win you the lower level tests, where type and movement help, but aren’t the real deal breakers. But we all know, when you get up there, accuracy and correctness should be well established in all the horses at that level, and it will be the athletic ability ie movement and ability that is going to get you in the ribbons. You can be as accurate as you want with whatever breed of horse, but what you cannot “train” is talent. I am sure you will agree as well, that it is either there, or it isn’t and that is where selective breeding comes in ( a concept alot of people on this board seem to a have a real hard time grasping).
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