THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[pwynnnorman]

Why thank you, CoolMeadows. That’s not something that has gotten “out there” that much (or believed, I guess).

Donella, the thing is, though – the point I was trying to make, that is – is when you look at the best dressage horses in the world, they vary HUGELY by type. Again, I can’t remember which horse it was, but Bonfire or Rembrandt (or another of their ilk) moved like a Saddlebred and LOOKED like one (long, long thin neck, long body, a ton of quite “upright” knee and hock), while Rusty is a totally, totally different model in looks and movement…and then there’s Invasador (oh, I know I have that wrong–the gray Iberian stallion whose breed I can’t even remember because all of this is just so peripheral for me).

That black mare that’s so fabulous is probably the absolute ideal in movement, but look at all those up there who are DIFFERENT. Makes you realize that that “absolute ideal” is far, far, far from being absolute (again, thank goodness)!

[Ridge_Runner]

@pwynnnorman;2616596

then there’s Invasador (oh, I know I have that wrong–the gray Iberian stallion whose breed I can’t even remember because all of this is just so peripheral for me).

He is an Andalusian.

[sm1]

[QUOTE=PineTreeFarm;2615759]
So where are the winning American Bred GP jumpers?[/QUOTE]

You did ask for AMERICAN BRED, we have a North American owner in Utah, but stallion’s on the KWPN list – not the USEF list: http://www.kwpn-na.org/stallion_dir/CoconutGrove.pdf

When an TB owner has a good horse, they take it internationally – duh. Because I don’t see much of a market for TB stallions in the USA, esp when they’re put to a broodmare of too much TB blood – the foal resulting can’t be registered ANYWHERE.

[PineTreeFarm]

@sm;2616707

You did ask for AMERICAN BRED, we have a North American owner in Utah, but stallion’s on the KWPN list – not the USEF list: http://www.kwpn-na.org/stallion_dir/CoconutGrove.pdf

When an TB owner has a good horse, they take it internationally – duh. Because I don’t see much of a market for TB stallions in the USA, esp when they’re put to a broodmare of too much TB blood – the foal resulting can’t be registered ANYWHERE.

SM
I am looking for American Bred horses currently showing successfully in GP Jumpers. I did not say I was looking for TB although I did mention that I found one in the top 50. I’m looking at the USEF 2007 25000+ GP rankings.

So while I really do think Coconut Grove is way cool he is neither American Bred nor is he currently showing.

[sm1]

Pine Tree Farm, with all due respect I think you mean you are looking for USA bred since Cococut Grove was bred in Columbia and therefore American bred. He descends from the notable Bold Ruler/Damascus cross.

[sm1]

[QUOTE=Donella;2616500]
[B]…Talent. I am sure you will agree as well, that it is either there, or it isn’t and that is where selective breeding comes in ( a concept alot of people on this board seem to a have a real hard time grasping).[/QUOTE]

I’m sure people are tired of the skewed FEI tests to favor WBs, and hearing that is “talent.” If the talent is really there, I would expect to find more along the lines of:

• other registries opening their books to WBs, saying “what an amazing athlete, I need that blood in my program.”

• a little less shifting of FEI tests over the years to favor WB attributes, take for one example the now emphasis of dressage in eventing. If the tests have to be shifted, what does that tell you about the quality of horse?

• I don’t see the Iberians overwhelmingly following the breeding criteria and breeding WB conformation “attributes” into their horses… maybe because the Lippazaners are doing a different brand of dressage. The narrow brand of dressage being offered as the “only real thing” is something the WBs are not addressing, yes? Am I supposed to believe the Lippazanners are not doing the “real thing?”

• please, somebody, take one of your talented WB jumpers and break this high jump record. It’s embarrassing, it’s one of the longest unbroken records in the HISTORY OF ALL KINDS OF SPORT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaso_(horse)

[Ridge_Runner]

@sm;2616812

• please, somebody, take one of your talented WB jumpers and break this high jump record. It’s embarrassing, it’s one of the longest unbroken records in the HISTORY OF ALL KINDS OF SPORT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaso_%28horse%29

So he was a Chilean bred? What does that mean? He could be anything from TB to Criollo…very cool! So what is the closest anyone has come to that record so far?

Never mind…I see now on rereading that he was a “racehorse” so I guess that means a TB. Very neat! I guess those TB’s can’t jump or do dressage.

I do know that what has happened to the sport of eventing with the new “short format” is nothing short of an outrage.

[sm1]

he happens to be OTTB – here’s the real kick in the pants – and without three good gaits for a while. He had a limp in the left hind from an old injury when he made the record.

Should be like taking candy from a baby to break this record set in 1949, yes?

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=sm;2616812]
[O]ther registries opening their books to WBs, saying "what an amazing athlete, I need that blood in my program.[/QUOTE]

Which registeries should? And why? Do you think the QH industry really cares about FEI competitions?

@sm;2616812

[A] little less shifting of FEI tests over the years to favor WB attributes, take for one example the now emphasis of dressage in eventing. If the tests have to be shifted, what does that tell you about the quality of horse?

Or how about a slightly less cynical view. Maybe, just maybe the FEI recognized that more and more horses could handle the cross country and the showjumping. Pretty objective metrics there – cleanly clear the hurdles in the requisite time. The emphasis on the dressage tells me that in addition to being fast and brave, the horse must be RIDEABLE as well. Thus, the shift demands a higher quality of horse overall.

[Drvmb1ggl3]

@sm;2616812

I’m sure people are tired of the skewed FEI tests to favor WBs, and hearing that is “talent.” If the talent is really there, I would expect to find more along the lines of:

I’m not sure why I’m wasting my time, as you have one of the most poisoned views I’ve seen on these boards, and that’s saying something considering some of the cock-eyed thinking that is bandied about on here.

• other registries opening their books to WBs, saying “what an amazing athlete, I need that blood in my program.”

What in the name of God is that supposed to mean?
Name the sporthorse registries (Eventing/SJ/Dress oriented) that don’t admit WB blood? The only one I can think of is the French Anglo-Arab.
Traks have a closed book, but they are WBs anyway. ISHs now use WB blood from all across the spectrum.

• a little less shifting of FEI tests over the years to favor WB attributes, take for one example the now emphasis of dressage in eventing. If the tests have to be shifted, what does that tell you about the quality of horse?

The horses that dominated in eventing PRE-short format are the same that dominate POST-short format. For the love of jeziz look at the results. The ISH is still the premier event horse in the world and the TB that works best is generally NH blood, no different now than before.

• I don’t see the Iberians overwhelmingly following the breeding criteria and breeding WB conformation “attributes” into their horses… maybe because the Lippazaners are doing a different “brand” of dressage. The narrow brand of dressage being offered as the “only real thing” is something the WBs are not addressing, yes? Am I supposed to believe the Lippazanners are not doing the “real thing?”

WTF?
There has been competition and Haute Ecole dressage ever since competition started. It’s not something that was cooked up by devious WB people. If anything they tailored their breeding to suit the competition code. What’s the problem with that?
It’s no different that with TBs. TB breeders in Ireland bred mostly NH horses, those have to be able to run long and jump. In the US they breed dirt horses that will unlikely ever run past 9f in their lives and will never see ground that isn’t flat as a pancake.
They are both racing horses, neither would do well in the other’s code of racing. What is the problem with that?

• please, somebody, take one of your talented WB jumpers and break this high jump record. It’s embarrassing, it’s one of the longest unbroken records in the HISTORY OF ALL KINDS OF SPORT: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huaso_(horse)

Sweet jeziz, I hope you don’t use that kind of logic to breed horses. One swallow does not a summer make. Here’s another TB analogy for you. Palace Music is the sire of the most succesfull dirt racehorse of the last 20 years. Is he then the top dirt sire of the last 20 years? Hell no, he spent the end of his career siring Turf horses in Australia. Why, cause there was little interest in the US wanted to breed to him. Why is that considering he sired the phenomenal Cigar? Because one swallow does not a summer make and all a breeder had to do was look at his stats and see that his offspring were by and large not good dirt runners.
Just because Hauso holds the world high jump record (a record that hasn’t been attempted in 60 years, because no one is interested in that style of jumping anymore because of the danger) does not mean the TB is a superior jumping horse.
Look at the big picture for godssakes.

[pwynnnorman]

I think that the eventing changes for WBs is a myth.

If you look at the determinants of winners at the top levels, dressage is important, but increasingly more so is SPEED x-c, and speed + ability in stadium.

Speed has been making HUGE changes in the dressage scores for the past several years. And that’s not just racing flat-out speed, a la OTTB, it’s also agility-type speed because of the technical riding and complexes which you can lose a lot of time on if you have to slow down and prepare a lot. Phillip Dutton has admitted as much with both Connaught and Tru Luck, especially the latter (who is still quite young). And what is increasingly being noted (by some) is that the dressage winners often NEED to be prepared a lot in front of their jumps–that’s why they are so good at dressage: their mentalities are such that they WAIT for you to tell them or are lost (make mistakes) if you don’t. But being able to ride every stride is great for an upper level dressage horse. It’s wasteful for an upper level eventer.

All of what I just wrote is just a huge generalization, of course. I’m just using it as an alternative explanation to the impact of the short format on what breed/type of horse is or is not favored in eventing.

[Waterwitch]

Pwynn I think you are right on and this is precisely why some of the smaller more agile horses are doing so well at this year’s 4*s (ie Teddy and Headley Brittania).

[pwynnnorman]

Oh, yeah. I don’t deny it!

[vineyridge]

bent hickory,

In eventing, the changes have come very quickly over the last five years and have mostly been pushed by the Germans who have tremendous clout with the FEI.

First they increased the difficulty of the dressage test, which was originally intended just to show a rideable horse. Not intermediate dressage gaits and movements.

Then they abolished the steeplechase and roads and tracks, which reduced the endurance element on XC day from well over an hour to less than twelve minutes. So horses with bred in endurance were no longer at an advantage. If you could condition a relatively slow horse to run 12 minutes then you could play the game.

The show jumping courses, which were originally intended to show that the horse had gas in the tank on the third day became more difficult and like the showjumping courses in showjumping, which are designed to favor WB attributes–adjustability and spring–, and not just the proof that a horse wasn’t finished after XC. Another change that favored WBs.

Now the Germans are pushing for another format change–or so it seems. One of the very top German riders at the moment has said that showjumping should come after dressage and before cross country. He thinks that the way the sport should be run. The reasoning is that XC would then be on the third day and truly be the deciding factor. Only that is a really enormous difference in the very basis of the sport, and one that will again favor WBs. Why? It won’t test the gas in the tank left over after a strenuous day of competition. The endurance aspect will be totally eliminated. (And in one anticipated or unanticipated consequence, the dressage and showjumping scores will set the leaders before XC, so really time penalties will decide competitions. Get a low dressage score and a clear showjumping round, and then do everything you can to go clear on XC, even if time decides.)

The Germans recently ran a European team event and they used this format. Guess who won convincingly on their Hanoverian horses.

It all goes back to horses for courses.

[pwynnnorman]

I hope that doesn’t happen. For one thing, soundness would also take more of a backseat.

But, just to be fair, not all of the features you noted were merely to favor their type or ride. Many were about the costs of the long format, both in finances and in horse-flesh.

[arnika]

vineyridge, Exactly!!!

Very clear and concise breakdown of the changes in eventing over the past few years. I own and breed Hanoverians and I disagree with the changes made even though they are to my horses’ benefit.

[vineyridge]

Pwynn, what do you mean by this?

Speed has been making HUGE changes in the dressage scores for the past several years.

The course designer, using FEI guidelines designs the courses and sets the times. Since people were bitching so loudly about eventing become dressage dominated, the designers tightened the times. Now it’s as much time as agility/ability that is the determining factor on XC day.

[sm1]

even the french are having problems with the changes, they are putting their own versions out there for eventing, jumping and driving http://www.aso-equitation.com/2007/us/organisation.html :

“The first edition of R.I.D.E., organised in the Paris region in 2004, was approved unanimously by those primarily concerned: the competitors. Whatever the discipline, jumping, eventing or driving, riders and drivers appreciated the original concept of the competitions and their technical quality .”

Look, if you want others to acknowledge the TALENT then stop skewing the tests, you can see the french are not even accepting them. And somebody get that jumping record broken so I can respect the breeding talent.

[pwynnnorman]

@vineyridge;2617097

Pwynn, what do you mean by this?

The course designer, using FEI guidelines designs the courses and sets the times. Since people were bitching so loudly about eventing become dressage dominated, the designers tightened the times. Now it’s as much time as agility/ability that is the determining factor on XC day.

That’s what I meant. Sorry, I wasn’t clear: The placings after dressage often change significantly now due to the times on x-c.

[vineyridge]

Yup, looks like the French who control the RIDE competition also think SJ should be on the second day.
http://www.aso-equitation.com/2007/us/complet.html