Everyone keeps comparing it to the europeans but they just don’t see.
In europe, many - most? - warmblood breeders are farmers, meaning that they are not factoring in the cost of the land, equipment, barns, etc into the cost of just the horses. They farm pigs and/or other livestock/cash crop and the cost of everything is offset by that. The horses are often times just on the side or in addition to that other agricultural business. If they had to factor in the cost of all that into the cost of the foals, it would be a different story but they don’t.
If Americans want to be more competitive, they need to find ways to cut their costs - how much again does it take to go to our 100 day test? How much does it take to haul forever to an inspection with mares/foals? How much does it cost to pay a zillion tiny registries all their different fees? How much are vet fees here versus there? How much are stallion stud fees here versus there?
To be competitive you have to demand the supporting markets to come into line to create an end product that is sellable to what the market is willing to pay. I don’t see very many breeders trying to do that. You guys are just sucking it up and saying that you have to do it. You don’t. There are other ways without sacrificing quality or care.
I don’t know if this is just a running horse thing but I’m trying to make a young mare. She needs winners and money on the page. Modern breeding being what it is, there is often a disconnect between overtly commercial stallions who sire hot sales horses (but not necessarily a high percentage of quality animals ironically enough) and solid, less flashy stallions who sire winners. Her yearling is by a stallion who has almost 80 % starters and an inordinately high percentage of allowance/small stakes types horses as compared to low claimers. He also doesn’t sire precocity and they don’t sell that well. He’s a classic breed to race type.
So I may well lose money on this filly in the short run because I’m not taking her to the sales but I’m hoping in the long run we get the last laugh.
Do sport horse breeders ever decide to go with a perhaps more obscure, less popular stallion because they are taking the long view? That would account for responsible breeding with no real hope of profit.
Quoted by Tri:
“To be competitive you have to demand the supporting markets to come into line to create an end product that is sellable to what the market is willing to pay. I don’t see very many breeders trying to do that. You guys are just sucking it up and saying that you have to do it. You don’t. There are other ways without sacrificing quality or care.”
Please, Tri, show us the “way.” How do we not sacrifice “quality or care”? What is your/the holy grail? We would all like to know.
you’re assuming the track is point to point, no repetitions. In fact, I think you’ll find most FEI-level Endurance rides take advantage of loops. Rides like the Tevis (not a FEI ride), which are 100 miles of trail end to end with no loops, are relatively uncommon even in the US.
KitterCritter, your tone is very nasty. Do you know that? Or is it just inbred?
What you have to ask yourself is, do you truely want to be competitive with europe? I do most of my own vet work - everything from inseminating, flushing mares, vaccines, etc. WB breeders in the U.S. have set themselves up to follow a system that is set up for the smaller countries - the 100 day testing, foal inspections, etc. The europeans do NOT pay over $15,000 to send a stallion to be 100 day tested. They do NOT drive 8 hours to get to inspection sites, they do NOT pay membership fees, stallion activation fees, etc to more than a couple of registries and most only pay fees to one. While there are some very high priced stallions in europe - the super hot stallion du jour, for the most part, most wb breeders there pay a lot lot less. Americans need to demand a system that works here and allows breeders to bring a product to the world market at a competitive price. Not keep supporting a system that ensures failure.
Then, as I stated, many many of the european wb breeders are first and foremost farmers. Their land, equipment, etc costs are paid for by other cash crops, be it pigs or whatever. Are american wb breeders prepared to do the same? Some probably do, but most probably wouldn’t be willing to go into agriculture.
These are the supporting markets that wb breeders feed into that they “could” demand a change from without sacrificing quality or the care of the horses.
So, question, why does that get you so mad? This whole thread is on how expensive it all is but NO ONE has suggested a way to be more succesful and profitable. Then when I do, your nasty reaction unfolds. Do you just want to wallow there and complain - then criticize those that try and find a different way? You illustrate the attitude of, this is the way we have always done it, so that is the way we always will. In business, that guarantees failure.
[QUOTE=KitterCritter;2623896]
Quoted by Tri:
“To be competitive you have to demand the supporting markets to come into line to create an end product that is sellable to what the market is willing to pay. I don’t see very many breeders trying to do that. You guys are just sucking it up and saying that you have to do it. You don’t. There are other ways without sacrificing quality or care.”
Please, Tri, show us the “way.” How do we not sacrifice “quality or care”? What is your/the holy grail? We would all like to know.[/QUOTE]
Look how the AQHA did it. Your Holy Grail is there. Their registry started in 1940 – and they dominate at 3 million horses. They also added an FEI sport (reining) and have 20 offices worldwide. Did any warmblood registry add a sport to the FEI? Well, no. Meaning some north american breeders are quite happy and successful.
The Jockey Club is also wildy successful but their history is a lot older, so much harder to learn from.
I do believe it’s each registries’ responsibility to help the breeders, just as the AQHA helps theirs. I think blaming the USEF for lack of a database may be a side issue (AQHA and JC got the job done, as did Morgans and Arabs).
[QUOTE=tri;2624652]
Americans need to demand a system that works here and allows breeders to bring a product to the world market at a competitive price. Not keep supporting a system that ensures failure.[/QUOTE]
Kathy, I agree on many of your points about the differences in WB breeding here versus Germany and Holland.
However - we have heard it said time and again that North American breeders are now producing foals on a par with those bred in Europe. I would suggest that supporting the German and Dutch WB registry systems - and ergo, their breeding philosophies - has had a great deal to do with the improvement in breeding programs here. I doubt very seriously we would have come as far as we have in the past 5-7 years if so many breeders hadn’t adopted the breeding practices of the Europeans (including the use of approved - and ideally, performance tested - mares and stallions).
Or Americans need to demand a system that works here and allows breeders to bring a product to the world market at a competitive price. Not keep supporting a system that ensures failure.
DownYonder, I think maybe you aren’t referring to the same production system as Tri, so the differences in WB breeding you refer to aren’t relevant to Tri’s argument.
I think Tri was talking about a systemic, not philosophical, difference. Not about breeding per se, but about production costs with respect to marketing and profit margins.
And this is an area I, too, have been very disappointed in–in terms of WB ponies/registries in this country. IMO, they do little to help market what they register. It doesn’t seem to be part of their system OR their philosophy, and yet they (the NA registries) represent the only current way breeders more-or-less “get together” in a coordinated way. How I wish the registeries would do more to bring breeders together constructively, rather than just reward the individual breeder with scores or awards or whatever. For example, the registeries themselves could “lobby” for a database with USEF.
Imagine if all the NA registeries, WB horse and pony, put pressure on USEF and came up with ways to resolve whatever issues exist? Imagine if there were a “joint task force” among the registeries to solve this problem once and for all? Y’know, in other industries, that’s probably exactly what would happen. “Competing” groups would put down their swords temporarily and work together to improve the battlefield for everyone. Indeed, I believe that kind of attitude is what propelled the AQHA industry forward in the 70s (I think that was the era, but I’m not really sure): the most influential movers and shakers in breeding set aside their differences in order to establish a very, very powerful infrastructure to insure the dominance of their breed (especially in the “stock horse” markets where they competed–for buyers–with Appaloosas, Arabians, Morgans, Paints, Pintos and others…on equal footing, BTW, until they cooperated with each other to create a system that shut out the others thereby establishing and enhancing the value of their product in the market).
Imagine if all the NA registeries… came up with ways to resolve whatever issues exist? Imagine if there were a “joint task force” among the registeries to solve this problem once and for all? [/QUOTE]
What happened to the North American Sporthorse Federation? Isn’t this what they set out to do? As I understand its members are/were:
American Hanoverian Society
American Holsteiner Horse Association
American Trakehner Association
Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association/NAD
Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association
German Oldenburg Verband/Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society of North America
International Sporthorse Registry/Oldenburg Registry North America
KWPN of North America
North American Selle Francais Association
Swedish Warmblood Association of North America
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2625299]
DownYonder, I think maybe you aren’t referring to the same production system as Tri, so the differences in WB breeding you refer to aren’t relevant to Tri’s argument.[/QUOTE]
Um, yes. Kathy and I were on the same trip to Germany a few years ago where we were first exposed to the German production system. She is absolutely correct in that a lot of the German breeders are FARMERS who raise other types of livestock or produce some other crop, with the horses as a secondary crop, or “hobby”.
Yes, I understand that. And as I said, I do agree with her on many points.
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2625299]And this is an area I, too, have been very disappointed in–in terms of WB ponies/registries in this country. IMO, they do little to help market what they register. It doesn’t seem to be part of their system OR their philosophy, and yet they (the NA registries) represent the only current way breeders more-or-less “get together” in a coordinated way. How I wish the registeries would do more to bring breeders together constructively, rather than just reward the individual breeder with scores or awards or whatever. For example, the registeries themselves could “lobby” for a database with USEF.
Imagine if all the NA registeries, WB horse and pony, put pressure on USEF and came up with ways to resolve whatever issues exist? Imagine if there were a “joint task force” among the registeries to solve this problem once and for all? Y’know, in other industries, that’s probably exactly what would happen. “Competing” groups would put down their swords temporarily and work together to improve the battlefield for everyone. Indeed, I believe that kind of attitude is what propelled the AQHA industry forward in the 70s (I think that was the era, but I’m not really sure): the most influential movers and shakers in breeding set aside their differences in order to establish a very, very powerful infrastructure to insure the dominance of their breed (especially in the “stock horse” markets where they competed–for buyers–with Appaloosas, Arabians, Morgans, Paints, Pintos and others…on equal footing, BTW, until they cooperated with each other to create a system that shut out the others thereby establishing and enhancing the value of their product in the market).[/QUOTE]
Well, that was supposed to be part of the intent for the North American Federation of Sport Horse Registries, but that organization seems to have fallen by the wayside due to internal politics and lack of strong leadership. The only really strong leader it has had was more intent on keeping certain other registries OUT than in trying to forge a more cohesive union among the N.A. based registries. Too bad, it could have been a very good organization for advancing sport horse breeding in North America.
I don’t know about Down Yonder, but the first time I was exposed to the european system was when I was 16 and one of the first warmblood stallion that made a mark here in the U.S. was imported into the training barn I was training at. He was huge, chestnut, 4 years old and has graced the cover of several different dressage training books since then.
I have been a follower of the european system since then and that was many many moons ago. Just because I think the U.S. needs to set up a system that works HERE for our demographics, with our large continent area and our market base, and our mare base doesn’t mean that I don’t share the philosophy of the european system of tracking offspring, approvals, culling and performance testing.
Down Yonder, you may think that americans are breeding horses “on par” with europe, but until some of those horses start doing something internationally like the european ones do and we become more competitive with the european system, it is like pissing in the wind.
[QUOTE=tri;2625998]
I don’t know about Down Yonder, but the first time I was exposed to the european system was when I was 16 and one of the first warmblood stallion that made a mark here in the U.S. was imported into the training barn I was training at. He was huge, chestnut, 4 years old and has graced the cover of several different dressage training books since then.[/QUOTE]
I too was “familiar” with German horses a LONG time before I made my first trip to Germany, having ridden with Kaye Smarslik way back in the early 80’s, as well as helping at the Dutch WB, Holsteiner, and Belgian WB stallion inspections held at Carl Bouckaert’s farm back in the 80’s. What we found interesting on that first trip to Germany - and almost everyone in the group commented on it - was learning that so many “breeders” were actually “farmers” raising other livestock or crops. Holly Simensen often referred to the German breeders as “farmers” and after that trip, I began to understand why.
I agree it would be nice to have a system that is set up for our demographics, but I do not agree about not needing offspring tracking, approvals, culling and performance testing. I honestly believe those policies have really proven their worth at helping N.A. breeders produce better and better horses.
I totally agree with this comment. We still have a long way to go until we have a plethora of N.A. bred horses competing successfully on an international basis. I think we will get there quicker, though, by continuing to use mare and stallion approvals, performance testing, offspring tracking, etc., to continually improve our foal crops. To throw out a system that IS working and go back to the days of breeding “willy-nilly” is NOT going to move us forward. Yes, many breeders have developed very good eyes and can do a good job of selecting the best breeding stock, but SO MANY breeders DO NOT know how to select a good mare, or to make a good stallion match. Without licensed stallions, mare approvals, etc., too many people are going to make poor breeding choices. The European system HAS helped us here - I don’t know how anyone can deny that.
I totally agree with this comment. We still have a long way to go until we have a plethora of N.A. bred horses competing successfully on an international basis.
I wonder about that, DownYonder. How much of that situation, in dressage–and maybe jumpers, too, I guess–is due to the fact that 1.) the owners of international caliber horses “never” buy American,
2.) the only way for a US bred to rise high enough to compete internationally seems to be for a rider to take it from start to finish, which reduces (comparatively) the odds that it will make it and
3.) riders skilled enough to take and finish a horse at the top ALSO “never” seem to take on a homebred?
Maybe international-caliber horses are produced here all the time, but the system is such that they aren’t given the chance to prove themselves? (I have this in my mind because of the Linda Allen thread in the H-J forum which is discussing how to get a. talented horses under b. talented riders who don’t have the money or contacts to access that a. caliber of rider or that b. caliber of horse. Maybe that’s confusing. What I mean is we don’t have a system to match talented horses with international-caliber riders or talented riders with international-caliber horses…but that doesn’t mean we aren’t producing international-caliber horses and riders!)
The problem is the definition of a sport horse is too limited by whomever made that list. From the list, it is only Euro wb’s…but we all know that other breeds can make wonderful sport horses also. I see no Iberians or any of the American Sport Horse type registries on there either.
