THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[STF]

[QUOTEMaybe international-caliber horses are produced here all the time, but the system is such that they aren’t given the chance to prove themselves? (I have this in my mind because of the Linda Allen thread in the H-J forum which is discussing how to get a. talented horses under b. talented riders who don’t have the money or contacts to access that a. caliber of rider or that b. caliber of horse. Maybe that’s confusing. What I mean is we don’t have a system to match talented horses with international-caliber riders or talented riders with international-caliber horses…but that doesn’t mean we aren’t producing international-caliber horses and riders!)

---

][/QUOTE]

I gota comment on this.
I think NA is producing some awesome stock now, but I still think the levels of trainers needed to bring these horses along are limited. So much can go so wrong in the first few yrs of riding and I have seen so many riders say “Oh that a mess to fix” and not want to to do it.
It can take weeks to fix in what one person can do in one ride on a senstive horse.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=STF;2626508]
Yall STILL fightin like insane women???
reading while sipping my coffee[/QUOTE]

Hey, you started it! And who you calling insane, woman? :D:lol:

[Ridge_Runner]

@STF;2626508

Yall STILL fightin like insane women???
reading while sipping my coffee

I thought we were having a discussion…not fighting…and you DID start it. :yes:

[STF]

Yes, I did.
But it was MY fight and yall “stole my thunder!”
:lol:

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2626318]
I wonder about that, DownYonder. How much of that situation, in dressage–and maybe jumpers, too, I guess–is due to the fact that 1.) the owners of international caliber horses “never” buy American,
2.) the only way for a US bred to rise high enough to compete internationally seems to be for a rider to take it from start to finish, which reduces (comparatively) the odds that it will make it and
3.) riders skilled enough to take and finish a horse at the top ALSO “never” seem to take on a homebred?

Maybe international-caliber horses are produced here all the time, but the system is such that they aren’t given the chance to prove themselves? (I have this in my mind because of the Linda Allen thread in the H-J forum which is discussing how to get a. talented horses under b. talented riders who don’t have the money or contacts to access that a. caliber of rider or that b. caliber of horse. Maybe that’s confusing. What I mean is we don’t have a system to match talented horses with international-caliber riders or talented riders with international-caliber horses…but that doesn’t mean we aren’t producing international-caliber horses and riders!)[/QUOTE]

Yes, I am sure we have international quality horses here that don’t get the same chance they might have if they were in Europe – and for many of the reasons you stated. I think that the FEI Young Dressage Horse program is starting to help get top trainers actually looking at young horses here, and some of those now coming up through the program are actually AMERICAN-BRED! We still have a very, very long way to go, though, before we will be on a par with the Germans and Dutch – just our demographics and geography make it a near impossible task to try to have a continuous stream of American-bred horses competing at the international levels. Let’s face, Europe has a much greater number of sporthorse breeders squeezed into a much smaller area. It’s going to be really, really difficult to equal the depth of quality found there.

[Ridge_Runner]

@STF;2626543

Yes, I did.
But it was MY fight and yall “stole my thunder!”
:lol:

Isn’t that part of the fun? :winkgrin:

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;2626392]
Seems to be excluding a number of valid SH registries i.e. ACPS and IDSHNA[/QUOTE]

Agreed, although I think the intent at the time was to try to ENCOURAGE those who were breeding European style warmbloods and discourage those who were using draft, QH, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc., in their breeding programs. (And please don’t start blasting me about all the wonderful “off breeds” out there doing a great job for their riders in the sport horse disciplines.)

Also bear in mind that some of the registries listed (Oldenburg Verband, for instance) had to FIGHT to get included! There were some on the leadership panel who tried very hard to exlude Oldenburg!!

[Tiki]

Or
Down Yonder, you may think that americans are breeding horses “on par” with europe, but until some of those horses start doing something internationally like the european ones do and we become more competitive with the european system, it is like pissing in the wind.

I totally agree with this comment. We still have a long way to go until we have a plethora of N.A. bred horses competing successfully on an international basis. I think we will get there quicker, though, by continuing to use mare and stallion approvals, performance testing, offspring tracking, etc., to continually improve our foal crops.
Yes, we do have the quality youngssters here and for the reason noted above about inspections and approvals. We do NOT as Pwynn noted have the trainers and riders. Everyone and anyone wants to hang out their shingle and say they ride or train when they can’t even put the saddle in the right place on the poor horse’s back. I think and hope that the young horse classes, be it jumpers, dressage or eventers WILL change some of this and draw BNT’s or BNR’s to look at what we are producing. The futurities, with big money prizes are helping to do that.

[sm1]

[QUOTE=STF;2626508]
Yall STILL fightin like insane women???
reading while sipping my coffee[/QUOTE]

Well, we take notes from your Parelli dressage thread and then try them out over here. I’m thinking:

STF = Still That Fussing
STF = Stop That Farelli (well, that one needs some work)

Anyway, I loff you

[tri]

“I agree it would be nice to have a system that is set up for our demographics, but I do not agree about not needing offspring tracking, approvals, culling and performance testing. I honestly believe those policies have really proven their worth at helping N.A. breeders produce better and better horses.”

Down yonder, I think you misunderstood me. I am in favor of tracking, approvals, culling & performance testing. I just think it needs to be set up differently to address the American markets & our continent size. We can not continue to have this convoluted system adapted directly from small european countries - it just doesn’t fly here. The system is broken - we have 7 year old stallions performance testing against 3 year olds at a cost of over $15,000 each. THAT DOESN’T WORK. Wb breeders are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. We need a strict system that works here.

In europe, it is the registries that help identify top quality young stock for their top riders. Not going to happen here.

[tri]

So, lets put it in a nutshell. You say it costs $10,000 to produce the average wb foal. But only the very top of the line foals should sell for $10,000 and up while the average nice wb foal usually sells for $7500 or so.

A top of the line foal, to me, means a foal that could be int’l quality. But many of you state you don’t breed for that int’l quality foal, instead you breed for the great minded ammy foal (the $7500 foal).

Then you state, there are many top class, int’l quality foals (10k and up) being bred but they don’t get to their potential because there aren’t any trainers to train them to that level and they get ruined early in their career.

Soooooo, my question to you, is that WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY A 10K+ FOAL FROM AN AMERICAN BREEDER??? You are telling the market that, well, even if you spend the 10k on the foal, really, there is no body who can train it and you will probably ruin it and you are never going to get up past 2nd level anyways.

What a trainwreck. Marketing, marketing marketing and a crappy system that sets you up for failure and NO desire from wb breeders to fix it.

[Graymaresrule]

@DownYonder;2626584

Agreed, although I think the intent at the time was to try to ENCOURAGE those who were breeding European style warmbloods and discourage those who were using draft, QH, Morgan, Saddlebred, etc., in their breeding programs. (And please don’t start blasting me about all the wonderful “off breeds” out there doing a great job for their riders in the sport horse disciplines.)

Also bear in mind that some of the registries listed (Oldenburg Verband, for instance) had to FIGHT to get included! There were some on the leadership panel who tried very hard to exlude Oldenburg!!

I can’t imagine anyone thinking either a Registered Irish Draught or Connemara Pony is an “off” breed

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=tri;2626725]
The system is broken - we have 7 year old stallions performance testing against 3 year olds at a cost of over $15,000 each. THAT DOESN’T WORK. Wb breeders are trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. We need a strict system that works here.[/QUOTE]

In europe, it is the registries that help identify top quality young stock for their top riders. Not going to happen here.[/QUOTE]

I agree, it is crazy to have 7 y/o’s testing against 3 y/o’s, but until we start getting more testing sites - and more frequently - there is no other option, short of dropping the stalion test altogether. And I doubt that AHS is willing to see that happen, nor are any of the other registries with close ties to their European parent registry or division. And $15,000 is NUTS!!

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=carolprudm;2626769]
I can’t imagine anyone thinking either a Registered Irish Draught or Connemara Pony is an “off” breed[/QUOTE]

I certainly agree, but again - despite its name - the Federation was set up primarily for European style WARMBLOOD breeders.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=tri;2626739]
What a trainwreck. Marketing, marketing marketing and a crappy system that sets you up for failure and NO desire from wb breeders to fix it.[/QUOTE]

Kathy, would you please tell us what your vision is for fixing this “crappy system”?

[sm1]

[QUOTE=tri;2626739]
What a trainwreck. Marketing, marketing marketing and a crappy system that sets you up for failure and NO desire from wb breeders to fix it.[/QUOTE]

Breeders aren’t the experts here, that’s why it is up to the registries to present their product (foals, their young stars) in the best light. And in that same felled swoop, they are presenting their registry and why the public at large should buy into a product produced by _____ (fill in the registry or coalition name). Instead of a product produced by their competitor.

It’s unfair to beat the breeders over the head: my old barn manager used to like to give vet advice and nutritional advice, guess what, I want a vet for that. Believe it or not, the vet with the actual accredited schooling and the actual license to practice really pays off.

[Ridge_Runner]

@DownYonder;2626845

I certainly agree, but again - despite its name - the Federation was set up primarily for European style WARMBLOOD breeders.

Then it should not be called a Sport Horse federation but instead a warmblood federation. Can you understand why breeders of sporthorses of non WB breeds might be a little offended by being excluded when the name would make it seem like they should be included? No one can say that Irish and Iberian horses are not top international competitors in sport horse disciplines at the olympic level even if you can make the argument that “off breeds” like the QH’s and Saddlebreds don’t “count.”

I feel like, most of the time, organizations like this should be more inclusive versus exclusive…there is strength in numbers and the more folks who band together for a common cause make success more likely. We Colonial Spanish breeders are having the very same revelations right now…for 50 years our registries have struggled alone as small, weak organizations where no one had enough money to promote our horses looking down our noses at the horses the other organizations had…even color was a topic to fight over. Now, finally…we have regional groups coming together who allow horses of all registries and types…even those that are questionably valid strains…to be included. We can now longer hope to save these horses for the future without banding together to do it. We are united more by the need to work together than we necessarily like each other’s horses…but as long as you can respect what the other has and breeds…you can get along and make it work. I think the Sport horse breeders should do the same thing and forget differences of breeding/type/registies/breeds, etc…and be inclusive to all who share that goal.

[tri]

Well, Chris, since you happen to agree on almost all points, apparantly you think it is crappy here too.

I’ve outlined quite often some of the problems and some of the possible changes that could be made many times on this board.

I think the first step is for more wb breeders to step up to the plate and say, we are going to change the way we are doing things here in the U.S. and if the registries don’t want to go along with it, they can take their ball back to europe to play. That is what I mean by demanding a system that ALLOWS us to bring a competitive product to the marketplace.

We have seen several revolutions in countries where this has happened. The most recent example that I have discussed was what British Breeding is doing. There is a lot to be learned there that could be applied here.

But until wb breeders decide they want to be competitive with the world markets, nothing will happen.

[tri]

“Breeders aren’t the experts here, that’s why it is up to the registries to present their product (foals, their young stars) in the best light. And in that same felled swoop, they are presenting their registry and why the public at large should buy into a product produced by _____ (fill in the registry name). Instead of a product produced by their competitor.”

Well, breeders should be some kind of expert, shouldn’t they?

So, fill in your blank: Is it…why the public at large should buy into a product produced by…Germany?..Holland?..or is it the United States? Kind of hard to tell when it is euro controlled registries who spend tons of money on getting people - including American buyers - to come to their country and buy their horses. But, they reason, at least if they can’t get them to come to their country and import their horses, at least it might be a horse that has their name on it and they get a piece through semen sales, registry fees or whatnot. That is where americans are at right now - our market is the left over “at least it might be’s” We are selling against the house and they have all the bases covered! Not good business sense at all, is it? And, then, add on the extra expenses and just dig a hole and bury it.

[Graymaresrule]

@DownYonder;2626845

I certainly agree, but again - despite its name - the Federation was set up primarily for European style WARMBLOOD breeders.

Does that mean in a few years they will have a fit if someone calls their RIDSH a Sport Horse?