THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[sm1]

[QUOTE=tri;2626920]

Well, breeders should be some kind of expert, shouldn’t they? [/QUOTE]

Well, if someone needs to step in and “pilot the plane” then someone needs to. It’s just grossly unfair because the skill set isn’t there. Talk about your trainwrecks…

@tri;2626920

So, fill in your blank: Is it…why the public at large should buy into a product produced by…Germany?..Holland?..or is it the United States? Kind of hard to tell when it is euro controlled registries who spend tons of money on getting people - including American buyers - to come to their country and buy their horses. But, they reason, at least if they can’t get them to come to their country and import their horses, at least it might be a horse that has their name on it and they get a piece through semen sales, registry fees or whatnot. That is where americans are at right now - our market is the left over “at least it might be’s” We are selling against the house and they have all the bases covered! Not good business sense at all, is it? And, then, add on the extra expenses and just dig a hole and bury it.

Thank you. Marketing 101, Session 1: all applies.

And the answers require a marketing budget to work with. Who has the budget based on membership fees? The “universal” website? And the clout to sent out press releases, professionally written magazine articles, etc? And the road map to see ten years ahead and thus be on target with all the info released to the public? Registry or coalition, of course. It sure isn’t the indivdual breeder.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=tri;2626897]
Well, Chris, since you happen to agree on almost all points, apparantly you think it is crappy here too. …
But until wb breeders decide they want to be competitive with the world markets, nothing will happen.[/QUOTE]

Oh, please. Just because I said I agree with many of your points does not mean I agree that we have a crappy system here. The system has worked extremely well to encourage breeders here to use better mares and stallions. North American breeders ARE putting better foals on the ground than they were 15 years ago when very few had any exposure at all to European sporthorse breeding philosophies. Inspections, breed shows, sporthorse seminars, etc,. have really helped breeders to develop their eye and to learn more about bloodlines and how they relate to PERFORMANCE. And what about the FEI Y/H dressage classes? Look at the success that program is already having in getting people excited about breeding, buying, training, showing good YOUNG HORSES – and it is purely a European invention!!

So if you want warmblood breeders to tell the European WB registries to “kiss off”, then exactly HOW do you expect breeders to then proceed? You seem to have it all worked out in your head on how American breeders can start beating the Germans and Dutch on a regular basis at major international competitions, so please tell us your vision for the future. What are the exact steps you would take (we want specifics – not a generalized statement).

[pwynnnorman]

@Daydream Believer;2626882

I feel like, most of the time, organizations like this should be more inclusive versus exclusive…there is strength in numbers and the more folks who band together for a common cause make success more likely.

I agree with you there, DB, but I can also understand why certain registeries wouldn’t want to lump all types together. But some have managed–it seems to me–to have their cake and eat it, too. Aren’t there different “books” that represent varying degrees of proximity to the ideal? By having a book that, perhaps, does little more than verify parentage and other statistics on stock that can’t be approved for the “blue blood book,” that’s still inclusive actions, wouldn’t you say? It’s still beefing up numbers and encouraging involvement. After all, mare or stallion owners in the “lesser” books can still be encouraged to hang around and learn about–perhaps even come to admire and attempt to emulate–the “better” books.

I do think that exclusivity is a bit like shooting oneself in the foot in this country, in spite of how it sounds like being exclusive is very important to some. Too bad those who feel that way can’t think outside the box a bit to learn from others how to reward excellence while also encouraging participation.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2626882]
Then it should not be called a Sport Horse federation but instead a warmblood federation. Can you understand why breeders of sporthorses of non WB breeds might be a little offended by being excluded when the name would make it seem like they should be included? No one can say that Irish and Iberian horses are not top international competitors in sport horse disciplines at the olympic level even if you can make the argument that “off breeds” like the QH’s and Saddlebreds don’t “count.” [/QUOTE]

Uh, I had nothing to do with setting up the Federation. My guess is that it was called that because ISR was one of the founding members. OTOH, the founding members were all primarily warmblood devotees (as in European-style warmbloods), so that is why the focus on warmbloods. I agree that the name and the intent do seem to be at odds, though.

[sm1]

Try reading post 573:

[QUOTE=DownYonder;2626974]
So if you want warmblood breeders to tell the European WB registries to “kiss off”, then exactly HOW do you expect breeders to then proceed? You seem to have it all worked out in your head on how American breeders can start beating the Germans and Dutch on a regular basis at major international competitions, so please tell us your vision for the future. What are the exact steps you would take (we want specifics – not a generalized statement).[/QUOTE]

[STF]

@sm;2626642

Well, we take notes from your Parelli dressage thread and then try them out over here. I’m thinking:

STF = Still That Fussing
STF = Stop That Farelli (well, that one needs some work)

Anyway, I loff you

Ahhh, Im just jealous and wana be like Linda.
:winkgrin:

[STF]

Soooooo, my question to you, is that WHO IN THEIR RIGHT MIND WOULD BUY A 10K+ FOAL FROM AN AMERICAN BREEDER???

Actually a lot of people. Many of the breeders I know sell their foals for 10-12 sometimes even 15 per. But they are the elite bred out of the elite bred mares. I still stand by they statement that quality sells.
I have no problem spending good money on something very well bred if I was looking at breeding stock.

[Ridge_Runner]

@pwynnnorman;2626982

By having a book that, perhaps, does little more than verify parentage and other statistics on stock that can’t be approved for the “blue blood book,” that’s still inclusive actions, wouldn’t you say? It’s still beefing up numbers and encouraging involvement. After all, mare or stallion owners in the “lesser” books can still be encouraged to hang around and learn about–perhaps even come to admire and attempt to emulate–the “better” books.

DING DING DING! The winner! :yes: You get it Wynn!

That is exactly the philosophy that I am getting at. For example, In our Colonial Spanish organizations, we allow folks who might have BLM mustangs (who may not have a drop of spanish blood in them) to join in and participate. In fact, owning a registered CS horse is not a requirement at all. Simply by bringing people into our “fold”…if you will…we will encourage them to hopefully buy “The Real McCoy” from a breeder when they see how nice our purebreds are. So…the same idea should work for WB’s if indeed they are the ultimate sport horse…people will see that for themselves instead of having it shoved down their throat by elitism and perhaps their next horse might be a WB instead of a QH or whatever breed they might have started with.

I understand why they want to be exclusive also…as we Col. Spanish breeders have fallen into the same pit by looking down our noses at strains or types we don’t like as much as our own stock…but I do feel it is a big mistake to be so at this point. All sport horse/pony type breeders should be banding together, regardless of breed, size, type, etc…to create an American bred sport horse that the rest of the world will come here to buy.

I also agree with Tri that imitating and emulating the Europeans in how we do things is not helping us at all…it just doesn’t fit here. American’s need to come up with a system that works for Americans and our vast country where we are so spread out.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=sm;2627007]
Try reading post 573:[/QUOTE]

There are no specifics in that post. Kathy (Tri) seems to think she is the expert on what is wrong with “the system” here and how to fix it. Let’s hear her plan - step by step.

[DownYonder]

[QUOTE=STF;2627043]
Actually a lot of people. Many of the breeders I know sell their foals for 10-12 sometimes even 15 per. But they are the elite bred out of the elite bred mares. I still stand by they statement that quality sells.
I have no problem spending good money on something very well bred if I was looking at breeding stock.[/QUOTE]

I also know quite a few who are selling weanlings at $10K - $12K or more. One has actually sold several for $20-$25K each (as well as one that sold out of the country for $35K!!)

[Bent_Hickory]

[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2627084]
I also agree with Tri that imitating and emulating the Europeans in how we do things is not helping us at all…it just doesn’t fit here. American’s need to come up with a system that works for Americans and our vast country where we are so spread out.[/QUOTE]

Then do it. Come up with a better system. After all, this is America…

Ooohhhh…but you want me to abandon a system that works for me (quite well actually) to provide credibility to a system that arguably works for you but may or may not work for me. Nope.

It’s a free market – when your system proves to be better than mine, maybe I’ll consider it. Until then, I’ll focus my energies toward improving the system I’m in. Because, after all, this IS America…

[Graymaresrule]

@pwynnnorman;2626982

I agree with you there, DB, but I can also understand why certain registeries wouldn’t want to lump all types together. But some have managed–it seems to me–to have their cake and eat it, too. Aren’t there different “books” that represent varying degrees of proximity to the ideal? By having a book that, perhaps, does little more than verify parentage and other statistics on stock that can’t be approved for the “blue blood book,” that’s still inclusive actions, wouldn’t you say? It’s still beefing up numbers and encouraging involvement. After all, mare or stallion owners in the “lesser” books can still be encouraged to hang around and learn about–perhaps even come to admire and attempt to emulate–the “better” books.

I do think that exclusivity is a bit like shooting oneself in the foot in this country, in spite of how it sounds like being exclusive is very important to some. Too bad those who feel that way can’t think outside the box a bit to learn from others how to reward excellence while also encouraging participation.

But what is the ideal? Is it going to be Teddy, or Quaterback or O’Leary’s Irish Diamond?

[Oakstable]

I think Canada has a great model for the sporthorse industry.

The US is so huge, it is a shame that all these inspectors are criss-crossing the country and breeders may or may not have access to an inspection, but there really is one close by, just a different registry.

I don’t think we have to reinvent the proverbial wheel.

With my two Dutch mares, I have the choice of the full stallion spectrum of any stallion approved in Europe and I get Register A papers. This works well for me.

[Ridge_Runner]

@Bent Hickory;2627247

Then do it. Come up with a better system. After all, this is America…

Yes it is…and I’m helping to do that with my own breed…go back and read what I wrote earlier about regional organizations. I don’t breed WB’s and don’t want to…but was only trying to make a suggestion that might help.

[Tiki]

The North American Sporthorse Federation members are/were:
American Hanoverian Society
American Holsteiner Horse Association
American Trakehner Association
Belgian Warmblood Breeding Association/NAD
Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association
German Oldenburg Verband/Oldenburg Horse Breeders Society of North America
International Sporthorse Registry/Oldenburg Registry North America
KWPN of North America
North American Selle Francais Association
Swedish Warmblood Association of North America
One of the biggest differences in the members of this federation and everybody else, regardless of whether it is called a ‘sporthorse’ or not (except the ISH in Ireland) is that these registries all have some form of performance testing required for stallions, they all inspect the mares and several have performance testing for mares.

AQHA, Arabs, SC’s, ISH in this country, ASB’s, Morgans, STB’s, TB’s register horses based on pedigree only. If they start doing performance testing, maybe they might want to join. TB and Arab and Shagya stallions have all passed the 100 Day Test or a sport requirement and been accepted into one or more of the registries as breeding stallions. Omar, A Fine Romance, Heroicity, Cocoanut Grove to name a few.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

@Tiki;2627339

One of the biggest differences in the members of this federation and everybody else, regardless of whether it is called a ‘sporthorse’ or not (except the ISH in Ireland) is that these registries all have some form of performance testing required for stallions.

It would be nice to see an American registry that is accepted WITH performance equivalent, like the Trakehners, positive results at a lower level Event.

[pwynnnorman]

Come up with our own system? Why not? Y’know, this just isn’t rocket science…

The fact is that the modern sport horse is a “purpose bred” horse. Regardless of the origin of its heritage (Westfalen, Trakhenen, Hannover, Oldenburg), it has been developed to excell in specific sports for which one can identify an “ideal,” which is rarely achieved, but useful for evaluation purposes…right? That individuals will deviate from the ideal yet still be valuable in contributing to the genetics pool is a given, but the system – as it currently does via inspections – can, if desired, identify the “extent” of any particular individual’s genetic value.

However, this being America, that’s not a “must do” thing. Not every breeder may agree with the system’s assessment–neither as stallion owner, baby owner or mare owner. No problem. It’s not like this system has to license breeding. Indeed, because it isn’t rocket science, one can even find models out there that accomodate such differences of opinion.

I know we’ve made this comparison before, but I’m mention it again: the dog show world. I’m not saying they have it best, but they DO have a “system” that includes a variety of breeds which ultimately come together under one umbrella organization. (And, YES YES YES–I KNOW they have their problems, too, OK? No need to go there and get sidetracked.)

From The Westminster Kennel Club website:
Each breed’s parent club creates a STANDARD, a written description of the ideal specimen of that breed. Generally relating form to function, i.e., the original function that the dog was bred to perform, most standards describe general appearance, movement, temperament, and specific physical traits … and more. Some standards can be very specific, some can be rather general … Standards are written, maintained and owned by the parent clubs of each breed.

The AKC recognizes seven groups of dogs. Within those groups are breeds. Am I the only one who can see a possible parallel here with horses? Why wouldn’t it be possible, among sporthorses, to identify an Iberian group, a European group, a Thoroughbred group, and, say, a Crossbred group…Oh, and a “Cob and Pony” group, of course? IMO, this is how “we” need not wait for USEF to develop a universal number and database for our stock. This is a framework that could be modified to do it “our” way while still retaining the ideals, practices and policies of individual organizations within each group.

[Ridge_Runner]

@Tiki;2627339

AQHA, Arabs, SC’s, ISH in this country, ASB’s, Morgans, STB’s, TB’s register horses based on pedigree only. If they start doing performance testing, maybe they might want to join. TB and Arab and Shagya stallions have all passed the 100 Day Test or a sport requirement and been accepted into one or more of the registries as breeding stallions. Omar, A Fine Romance, Heroicity, Cocoanut Grove to name a few.

It’s true that many bloodline based breeds do not performance test…and after reading what the 100 day tests are like…I would not send my stallion through for any reason. Now if someone would accept an equivalent requirement of performance in the real world and would accept non traditional bloodlines…maybe I’d do it.

So…it’s a vicious circle…the only registries that will take American breeds like morgans and Col. Spanish and others and not treat them like bastard stepchildren are the AWS/AWR and those registries are not on that list…

[Ridge_Runner]

@pwynnnorman;2627457

The AKC recognizes seven groups of dogs. Within those groups are breeds. Am I the only one who can see a possible parallel here with horses? Why wouldn’t it be possible, among sporthorses, to identify an Iberian group, a European group, a Thoroughbred group, and, say, a Crossbred group…Oh, and a “Cob and Pony” group, of course? IMO, this is how “we” need not wait for USEF to develop a universal number and database for our stock. This is a framework that could be modified to do it “our” way while still retaining the ideals, practices and policies of individual organizations within each group.

That is a great idea I think…a real American Sport Horse Registry with a “book” for all the types of sport horses…where they are seperate in their categories and types…yet everyone is still working together in a united fashion.

[tri]

STF and downyonder, you have both completely missed the point. I know there are people who are buying the proverbial 10K-15K foal (alpaca syndrom being what it is) but according to YOU GUYS, that 10-15k foal SHOULD be of int’l quality, and according to YOU GUYS that foal won’t have a trainer that can start it here in the U.S., and according to YOU GUYS, that foal will just get ruined, and according to YOU GUYS, that foal will most probably not ever get to the level that spending 10-15K or more would dictate that it should.

According to what YOU GUYS are saying, WHY would anyone do it?. Do you tell the buyers of those 10K-15K foals what you are saying here? - that it won’t matter that you are buying an int’l quality foal, and good luck finding a trainer that won’t ruin it and, you know, europe has such a better system for starting horses, and if you really want to get a horse that can go to the int’l level, maybe you should buy one already started over there, because, if you get a foal here, it will end up ruined? Do you say that? Because that is the system and the marketing that you are saying to us here. Sheesh.