:lol::lol::lol::lol:
That was great. The whole post was! Oh, lordy, do I love it when logic is applied to horse breeding–it’s always so very entertaining! (…oh, and somewhat depressing, too, especially on a personal level!.)
[QUOTE=Tiki;2627339]
… TB’s register horses based on pedigree only. If they start doing performance testing, maybe they might want to join. TB and Arab and Shagya stallions have all passed the 100 Day Test or a sport requirement and been accepted into one or more of the registries as breeding stallions. Omar, A Fine Romance, Heroicity, Cocoanut Grove to name a few.[/QUOTE]
I’m not sure I understand the point:
TBs are a closed book and “should” be registered based on pedigree, and of course after meeting the JC requirements. Taking a TB stallion and going to the appropriate sporthorse registry for approval is correct.
Maybe it’s a euro WB program and maybe it’s a western QH program or an american hunter breeding program. Surely one registry or coalition isn’t going to figure out what’s an appropriate stallion test for a TB across all disciplines? For a WB stallion, I can see it…
Let’s face it, the western breeders have, in essence, no use for what’s desirable conformationally or test-wise to a WB breeder. And the JC centuries of complete pedigree (no unknowns) tells you if the TB is genetically sound and is bred for endurance/stamina, that’s a whole lot better record then any brief test going on…
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2627492]
That is a great idea I think…a real American Sport Horse Registry with a “book” for all the types of sport horses…where they are seperate in their categories and types…yet everyone is still working together in a united fashion.[/QUOTE]
How does that differ from what the USEF already started
http://www.usef.org/Contentpage2.aspx?id=breeds
Click on Andalusian / Lusitano for one example
http://www.usef.org/Contentpage2.aspx?id=andallust
and you get:
Andalusian/Lusitano Rules
Point Tabulations
2007 Points
Breed History
Characteristics
[QUOTE=sm;2627554]
And the JC centuries of complete pedigree (no unknowns) tells you if the TB is genetically sound and is bred for endurance/stamina, that’s a whole lot better record then any brief test going on…[/QUOTE]
You must be joking. A pedigree tells you nothing about genetic soundness nor whether the horse will have endurance or stamina. Heck, most of the racing TB’s in the US today can’t stay sound through their forth year, even when lightly raced over relatively short distances once every few months. And we won’t even get into the genetically bad feet most seem to have…
[QUOTE=tri;2627523]
STF and downyonder, you have both completely missed the point. I know there are people who are buying the proverbial 10K-15K foal (alpaca syndrom being what it is) but according to YOU GUYS, that 10-15k foal SHOULD be of int’l quality, and according to YOU GUYS that foal won’t have a trainer that can start it here in the U.S., and according to YOU GUYS, that foal will just get ruined, and according to YOU GUYS, that foal will most probably not ever get to the level that spending 10-15K or more would dictate that it should.
According to what YOU GUYS are saying, WHY would anyone do it?. Do you tell the buyers of those 10K-15K foals what you are saying here? - that it won’t matter that you are buying an int’l quality foal, and good luck finding a trainer that won’t ruin it and, you know, europe has such a better system for starting horses, and if you really want to get a horse that can go to the int’l level, maybe you should buy one already started over there, because, if you get a foal here, it will end up ruined? Do you say that? Because that is the system and the marketing that you are saying to us here. Sheesh.[/QUOTE]
Baloney. I do not believe and have never stated that one can buy a true “international quality” foal for $10K-$15K, unless you get very, very, VERY lucky to stumble on one where the breeder doesn’t realize what they have, or they are in a desparate situation and need to sell immediately. Nor have I stated unequivocably that there are no trainers for good foals. The people that I know that are selling foals in the $20K and up range are selling to very good riders/trainers, most of whom already have a proven track record of bringing horses up to FEI (heck, one of them just represented her country at the Pan Am games - and did quite well, too! :D).
I ask again, Kathy - please outline your plan for a different system. Let’s hear it, since you obviously know so much more than we do.
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;2627724]
You must be joking. A pedigree tells you nothing about genetic soundness nor whether the horse will have endurance or stamina. Heck, most of the racing TB’s in the US today can’t stay sound through their forth year, even when lightly raced over relatively short distances once every few months. And we won’t even get into the genetically bad feet most seem to have…[/QUOTE]
Whoaaa!..sorry but I have to disagree with you there 
If any other breed of horse was asked to do what a Thoroughbred is asked to do at that young age they wouldn’t even make it to the track.
If you look at TB’s that haven’t raced as 2 and 3yo’s they usually have good feet.
I’ve got 9 TB’s and only one has flat raced as a 2yo. All except the one that raced as a 2yo have excellent feet. I even event one of them without shoes.
This isn’t just from my horses that I have seen this but from many National Hunt horses that aren’t even backed until 3 or 4 yo or even shod until they start real work…very few have I seen with bad feet.
Ask a horse to do a job before it has physically matured and you wreck it!..same with the Warmbloods that are doing passage etc. as 3yo’s just to impress at the Auctions…how many of those are still sound as 8yo’s ?
Ok, Chris. So now the 10K-15K foal isn’t FEI potential. It is the 20K foal that is FEI potential and now, according to you, we have plenty of riders and trainers that can take the 20K foal up to international levels…we just don’t have any that can train the 10k foal up to, what? any level at all?? Oh, what about the poor poor poor $7500 foal!! What to do with that one? Any trainers for that one? What do you tell the buyers of that poor foal?
As for the plan, Chris, other posters here have tried to point you to posts where we discuss them. I have already pointed you to previous posts where, just one example, is what British Breeding is doing. Other examples I have given are the Canadians and how they are getting the job done.
Your tone, Chris, is the same as always. Do you want to have a constructive discussion or are you just another complainer with no desire for solutions?
I certainly see your point but I think it would differ several ways. First and foremost it would be an organization more like a registry than the USEF is. Also USEF covers all American show horses…not just sport horses so we’d be in there with the non sport horse disciplines…too big and too cumbersome and not enough focus. Second…it would exist to support sport horse breeders and help market our US bred horses and in the way that Wynn suggested…there would be a book or section for everyone interested in sport horse breeding. I see it holding inspections where each type of sport horse within their type/group would be judged equally…in other words… if the goal was performance in dressage than the standards you hold an Iberian to would be the same as the WB…or the TB…or the crossbred…so the best dressage bred Iberians would be scored the highest…same as WB’s and you’d be able to look at a score and know how that Iberian’s gaits that were a 7.5 would compare to a 7.5 mover in any type…I hope that makes some sense. That way you have a qualitative scoring system for breeders of other breeds like the WB’s have now but you have it within the types…so if I had an Andalusian mare and I wanted to produce a foal for dressage, I’d know which stallions to look at and who scored the highest as well as be able to follow performance records. I could even see that some horses could cross between or be recognized by two different books…ie Ponies and Cobs/Iberian (for a Col. Spanish horse perhaps) or Crossbreds/Euro WB’s (for say a half TB/Half WB). If someone wants to cross an Iberian to a WB than you’d have a place to inspect the youngster and register it as a crossbred of the main types instead of trying to figure out how to add some legitimacy to that foal and what registry might take it.
I think it is a very neat idea actually and one that might work. That way no one gets upset by someone calling a QH an American WB…which we know they are not but at the same time, that sport horse type QH (and they do exist) has a place to be recognized as a sport horse and so does their breeder if that horse were to achieve certain performance standards. It doesn’t lump the American type sport horses in with the Euro types either…so hopefully no one’s feathers would be ruffled by that like they are when the AWS is brought up…
I think if somehow an organization like this could work with the USEF, than perhaps we’d have a way to track results of breeder’s stock after they are sold as well.
I don’t know…maybe it’s a crazy idea but I think Wynn’s idea has some merit and bears more consideration.
Most of the RID stallions are performance tested…in competition. I know of at least one who foxhunts regularly. Many of the Connemara stallions also compete.
IMHO that is a more credible test than the 100 day test.
I’ve often wondered why the NA registries which want stallion testing don’t align themselves with a USEA horse trials–have a stallion licensing division. It shouldn’t cost $15,000.00 to get a horse ready to run a novice course.
Kathy are you on drugs???
Where did all that come from?
Everyone knows breeding and buying young stock in a gamble. Buying proven genetics does help a ton, but its still a gamble. I would much rather gamble 10K on proven blood than not.
But the rest of that is babble Im not understanding.
Yes, we lack young horse trainers, but I never said they all get ruined. Dont twist my words. I know a few of you are enjoying the fight here and picking words to KEEP fighting, but goshleeeeeeeeeee.
Your amazing Kathy. Why twist words and make more issues like you are. Are you just THAT Happy to fight???
posted by DB - if someone would accept an equivalent requirement of performance
They do accept performance, but since they don’t have the horses ‘in residence’, which the Europeans, Irish, and the members of the Federation do, the performance requirements, without the central testing are higher than the level required for 3 and 4 yo stallions.
As far as the RID in this country, there is no standard for fox hunting or the other things you mentioned and no way to evaluate to a standard, as there is no standard. Ireland has a central testing facility, as does England, where standardized testing occurs. They also allow show performance at defined levels to qualify as do the European registries.
Once upon a time, in order for a horse to enter certain hunter classes at a show it needed a certificate from the MFH. If the practice has disappeared I’m sure it could be revived.
And how many continental stallions can match the competition record of Hideaway’s Erin Go Bragh, a Connemara pony?
[QUOTE=shea’smom;2605213]
Costs of bedding around here, sawdust, is about $15 a month per horse. [/QUOTE]
I spend about $7/day per horse on shavings. I dream of having expenses as miniscule as the original poster’s.
[QUOTE=tri;2627818]
Ok, Chris. So now the 10K-15K foal isn’t FEI potential. It is the 20K foal that is FEI potential and now, according to you, we have plenty of riders and trainers that can take the 20K foal up to international levels…we just don’t have any that can train the 10k foal up to, what? any level at all?? Oh, what about the poor poor poor $7500 foal!! What to do with that one? Any trainers for that one? What do you tell the buyers of that poor foal?[/QUOTE]
Oh, brother. You certainly have a knack for twisting people’s words, don’t you? Where did I EVER say that the $10K-$15K weanling isn’t FEI potential? Did you fail reading comprehension in school? I said that I wouldn’t expect to get an INTERNATIONAL QUALITY foal for that price! BIG difference!!
And I ask again - please explain your brilliant idea for world domination in the FEI sports. I don’t want to have to do figure out what the British are doing. Britain is a tiny island, and what works there may not work here. I want to know IN YOUR WORDS how YOU would fix the “crappy system” we have here. I am all ears.
My tone? MY tone? How about yours? You are constantly twisting people’s words to fit your own distorted world view of how sporthorse breeding is supposed to be. In KATHY’S WORLD, no one would ever use a horse with Euro WB bloodlines. In KATHY’S WORLD, no FEI trainer in her right mind would EVER consider ANYTHING but an American-bred (with no Euro WB bloodlines). In KATHY’S WORLD, there would be no inspections of breeding stock, no mare or stallion performance tests, no registration of foals, no verification of parentage by an independant agency, no tracking system to identify the top sires/dams/breeders, etc., for various disciplines. In KATHY’S WORLD, all German, Dutch, Danish, Swedish, French breeders, trainers, instructors, inspectors, registry officials would be shot on sight. In KATHY’S WORLD, American trainers would only be allowed to ride American-bred horses. And of course, in KATHY’S WORLD, we would still be producing the same type of horses we produced in the 1970’s.
At least now, we have young horses BRED IN AMERICA (and yes, using European bloodlines) representing the U.S. at the World Championship for Young Dressage Horses. A few years ago, we had a young horse BRED IN AMERICA (using European bloodlines) representing the U.S. at the World Championships for Young Jumpers. When AMERICAN-BRED horses start showing up REGULARLY in the international rankings for dressage and showjumping, I can guarantee you they WILL have European bloodlines and will have been bred based on the European system.
Get over yourself, Kathy. Your venom for everything European is poisoning your mind and affecting your ability to think clearly.
We’ve just had a great argument over on an Australian forum about whether or not Australian breeders are being GREEDY expecting $15k - $20k (US$12 - 17k) for UNDER-SADDLE 4yos with national level quality because that’s what you can apparently buy them for in Europe.
I’m a breeder and I was pretty horrified to think that was the best I could expect was $20k for the best I could consistently expect to breed from frozen semen and good mares.
You guys are having a right royal tush about similar prices for FOALS. LOL
Oh. I think you’re right. It would also be more of setting one national judging criteria for the judges to meet in breeds/registries across the board. And the one group could accomplish so much more: in finding appropriate riders and trainers, in marketing and sales, in “political” power:
[QUOTE=Daydream Believer;2627865]
I certainly see your point but I think it would differ several ways. First and foremost it would be an organization more like a registry than the USEF is. Also USEF covers all American show horses…not just sport horses so we’d be in there with the non sport horse disciplines…too big and too cumbersome and not enough focus. Second…it would exist to support sport horse breeders and help market our US bred horses and in the way that Wynn suggested…there would be a book or section for everyone interested in sport horse breeding. I see it holding inspections where each type of sport horse within their type/group would be judged equally…in other words… if the goal was performance in dressage than the standards you hold an Iberian to would be the same as the WB…or the TB…or the crossbred…so the best dressage bred Iberians would be scored the highest…same as WB’s and you’d be able to look at a score and know how that Iberian’s gaits that were a 7.5 would compare to a 7.5 mover in any type…I hope that makes some sense. That way you have a qualitative scoring system for breeders of other breeds like the WB’s have now but you have it within the types…so if I had an Andalusian mare and I wanted to produce a foal for dressage, I’d know which stallions to look at and who scored the highest as well as be able to follow performance records. I could even see that some horses could cross between or be recognized by two different books…ie Ponies and Cobs/Iberian (for a Col. Spanish horse perhaps) or Crossbreds/Euro WB’s (for say a half TB/Half WB). If someone wants to cross an Iberian to a WB than you’d have a place to inspect the youngster and register it as a crossbred of the main types instead of trying to figure out how to add some legitimacy to that foal and what registry might take it.
I think it is a very neat idea actually and one that might work.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=rcloisonne;2627724]
You must be joking. A pedigree tells you nothing about genetic soundness nor whether the horse will have endurance or stamina. Heck, most of the racing TB’s in the US today can’t stay sound through their forth year, even when lightly raced over relatively short distances once every few months. And we won’t even get into the genetically bad feet most seem to have…[/QUOTE]
Well, why not take that to the Keenland Sales and impress the boys over there. Based on PEDIGREE, I mean JC records on genetics and bloodlines, then explain these sales numbers on young horses:
the $16-million Forestry colt sold at public auction (yes, 16 million paid for one horse)… http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32375
The Fasig-Tipton Florida select sale of 2-year-olds, for a juvenile sale the average price of $403,812 for the 154 horses sold… http://news.bloodhorse.com/viewstory.asp?id=32375
WOULD LIKE TO SEE YOUR SOURCE REGARDING SOUNDNESS, “Heck, most of the racing TB’s in the US today can’t stay sound through their forth year, even when lightly raced over relatively short distances once every few months. And we won’t even get into the genetically bad feet most seem to have…” LOOKS LIKE A CONCLUSION NOT BASED ON FACTS
oh, chris. Your ability to read should be questioned! Where did I ever say I didn’t want euro bloodlines? I have euro bloodlines. I really have nothing other than euro bloodlines. So I am not sure who or what you are babbling about. But all my horses started with my foundation mares imported from europe. I spend a lot of time in europe. Get over yourself.
Also, all my horses are inspected, registered and compete. So who and what in the world are you talking about?
And also, if you don’t want to take the time to educate yourself about what is going on in the world of sporthorse breeding (it has also been discussed quite a bit on this forum), I can’t really help people like you. Tone, tone, tone, Chris.
STF, at least I am not telling people to SHUT UP like you are. As another poster said, you started it as your “rant”. If you aren’t interested in different points of veiw, don’t post.
