So, Kathy, let me get this straight. You’re doing exactly what you’re taking other breeder’s over the coals for??? Importing horses from Europe, breeding all European WB lines, having them all inspected and registered? But it’s wrong for all of us? Oh yeah, that’s right - you inspect and register them with the American Warmblood Registry. So the battle isn’t about what we’re doing, then, it’s about where we choose to register them?
A bit OT, but did you see that report in The Horse about the low entries for the Traverse stakes? (I’m not sure that’s the right publication, though.) Basically, the point made was that, these days, 1.) TBs aren’t sound enough to race more than 8 or so times per year–in marked contrast to years past when they usually ran every 3 weeks or so; 2.) good running, well-bred colts are so valuable that after they win big, the only races worth risking have to be the prestigious classics (so this year, the big guns are skipping Saratoga and aiming for the Breeder’s Cup); and 3.) the combination of #1 and #2 (“they can’t race that much and stay sound” plus “they’re too valuable to race that much”) doesn’t bode well for the future soundess of TBs either (the latter was kinda implied, but not stated).
I still love the TB, but it sure doesn’t look like, in the future, good TBs are going to come from the track as much as they used to. All the more reason why I hope there will still be TB breeders out there breeding for sport.
I agree, Wynn. The horses I get off the track now have many more little issues - mental and physical - than the horses of 10 years ago. Bad training? Genetics? Poor management? Or a combination?
Still, I love a TB. I too hope people keep them in the mix when breeding for sport.
Oh, and I remember where I read it now: The Ocala Star Banner (sports page). It was quite an indepth article. Lemme see if I can find in online…
I did! Here’s a teaser:
“[T]he $1 million Travers will serve as a glaring example of the new realities of horse racing, a sport in which the competitors seem to be merely auditioning for the booming breeding industry and can be so fragile that most trainers say they need a month or more to recover from the rigors of a race.”
It’s very interesting reading: http://www.ocala.com/article/20070820/SPORTS/208200315
I read FRAGILE as being in a delicate spot of running a $25 million horse or a $50 million horsehorse intended for breeding – and losing the race. The FRAGILE economic risk to running these horses that are worth so much as stallion prospects – before the possibility of losing races and lowering their value for breeding. After all it’s a fear based in fact, we have seen “cheap” horses win the KY Derby and out run the big money.
And so now you have careers of 2 years long with 13 starts (like Street Sense), as opposed to the old days.
But it is funny: first the complaint the TB people are running their horses into the ground, running them too soon and running them to death. Then the complaint if they are holding back, “well of course they are holding back, the horses are not bred sound.”
[QUOTE=moonriverfarm;2637981]
I agree, Wynn. The horses I get off the track now have many more little issues - mental and physical - than the horses of 10 years ago. Bad training? Genetics? Poor management? Or a combination?
Still, I love a TB. I too hope people keep them in the mix when breeding for sport.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know, there are many good horses coming off the track, and I have one now. A few do breed and train them for the track specifically with the idea of a sport horse career afterwards. That’s not one I have though, mine was a straight racer 
Raking other breeders over the coals??? No, I am not raking breeders, I am raking the registries. And I am an advocate for the breeders to stand up and take responsibilty for breeding sporthorses in our own country, to organize, to demand better, to create a system that is successful, to push forward into the world markets instead of sitting back and saying it isn’t important, to push breeders into getting their horses in sport instead of happily trotting triangles for the rest of their lives!!!
Chris just makes stuff up and you shouldn’t listen to her - she has her own agenda. I am and have always been for a system to promote international quality warmblood breeding in this country that uses the same philosophies that made the europeans a tremendous success. The system we have now will only ensure that the EUROPEANS continue to have the success. I want that success for an American product, marketed as an American product as a product of an American system.
I have repeatedly pointed to the system set up by British Breeding (something that Chris has convienently ignored). Their system still has different registries but is overseen and overstamped as British Breeding so the product is known as a product of British Breeding. That might work here or at least some of the different components.
If you look into the British Breeding program and look into WHY they are setting it up, you will see a lot of what I have posted about as well. I am hardly the first in the world to call a spade, a spade.
Oh yeah they will.
Plenty of NH horses running past 10 and into their teens.
TBs aren’t any less sounder now than decades ago. Go back and read about racing in days of yore and you’ll see they had their share of breakdowns and early retirements.
Why you don’t see top horses running more now is because they can’t afford to be beaten, as their stud value is so much, $20m - $100m, so they are all running sacred of each other afraid to risk being beaten for some measly $600k purse, and trainers carefully pick their spots until the BC Classic comes around when it’s all cards on the table.
I guess it makes the BC Classic exciting, but sure sucks the life out of the rest of the year. It’s like watching dodge’ems. But you can’t extrapolate from that TBs are any less sounder. It’s the trainers and the silly amount of money stallions can be worth.
That’s why you need to watch racing in Aus, Jap and Eur, they’re not near as gun shy. Just look at today, the Derby winner went out and beat some of the top older horses in the Juddmonte Intl at York.
The former (part of your statement) was part of the article, but I was really parroting something written in the article which addressed the latter (part of your statment), sm:
“It was not that long ago that top horses ran every few weeks and made 15 or 16 starts a year. Today, they seem unable to stand up to that sort of campaign, and many top trainers say that well-rested horses have an advantage.”
And also:
“Even Street Sense’s racing program has been planned with the Breeders’ Cup in mind. He was kept out of the Belmont Stakes because the colt’s trainer, Carl Nafzger, did not think he would hold up to a schedule that included the Belmont, the Travers and the Breeders’ Cup.”
In the case of Street Sense, please bear in the mind that the advent of the Breeder’s Cups in 1984 changed everything about how they compete. Instead of a fall series, a top horse has one year end big race he has to make and instead of a real campaign like Spectacular Bid or Affirmed, he has “preps” to the BC. In some ways, it’s great. Back in the day, it was very hard to win an Eclipse if you didn’t race in New York. Even worse, if your horse didn’t like Belmont, you were utterly screwed.
But the big day mentality combined with the ridiculous worth of these horses ($30-50 million for a top prospect) tends to make owners and trainers keep them in the barn after they have acquired a certain reputation.
As far as the rest, trainers are different too. Oldtimers used to run them into shape and they weren’t so worried about their win percentage. Then the DRF started coming out with those numbers in the PPs and now fans talk about a 10 % trainer versus an 18 % trainer. That can mean the difference between clients and no clients. Now instead if running every week, they run once a month and drill a half every week.
It’ll be interesting to see if synthetic track makes a difference in longevity. It’s supposed to be a lot more like turf, so not so hard on the horse’s joints.
A lot of two year olds shouldn’t be running every three weeks. They aren’t mature enough. Street Sense has been doing heavy duty running since the middle of his two year old year. If he needed a break, it’s certainly understandable. His breeding value has already been established by winning the Breeders’ Cup Juvenile AND the KY Derby.
And you have to consider that more than ten years ago 6f and shorter races probably weren’t as predominant as they are now. I’ve seen race cards with only one race a mile or longer. All the others were from 4 1/2 furlongs to six furlongs. Those races have to be a lot harder on the horses because they explode out of the gate and have to keep exploding.
Another thing to remember is that it is theorized that sprinter bred horses make better jumpers because of their ratios of long and short muscle fibers.
I really don’t quite think it’s time to give up on the American bred TBs for physical reasons. The stout ones are out there.
You raised a good point and I think another possible issue is the popularity of the 2 year old sales in the last 10 years. Those sales were originally devised as cull sales–a last ditch effort to unload a horse you couldn’t sell any other way. Now they’ve become destination sales. People buy yearlings specifically to pinhook them as juveniles. The timeline for a commercial horse can be daunting. If they are selling in September, they can get months of intensive sales prep including round pen stuff, then they get broke after they sell, start galloping in December and they can do speed drills by February. If they sell, in late February, early March, the trainers might go on with them and they could debut in April or May. By the early Derby trail, some horses have been in training for a solid year. Just because they haven’t run many times, doesn’t mean that there aren’t miles and miles of training in them.
Mandella has publicly said that he thinks its the trainers and not the horses. I tend to believe that breeders can’t change a breed that fast (for good or ill). Breeding almost always goes back to the mean. Otherwise we’d have supersonic horses.
[QUOTE=tri;2638395]
Chris just makes stuff up and you shouldn’t listen to her - she has her own agenda.[/QUOTE]
Oh, but people should listen to YOU, who obviously has your OWN agenda? Sheesh…
Please explain how you would go about implementing “the British system” here. I doubt very seriously that KWPN-NA or AHS or Oldenburg (GOV) is going to allow an umbrella organization to “oversee” how they operate here.
That’s interesting and encouraging TB stuff! Makes me want to write a letter to the editor now to get that writer to re-visit the topic! Thanks for the additional nuances.
[QUOTE=pwynnnorman;2639062]
That’s interesting and encouraging TB stuff! Makes me want to write a letter to the editor now to get that writer to re-visit the topic! Thanks for the additional nuances.[/QUOTE]
The writer did just fine.
I still don’t see the article the way you read it: if so they would be quoting breakdown statistics and the effect injury has on breeding worth, and/or stud fees, for that injured horse. For example, horses like Charismatic. Thanks to the jockey’s skill, Chris Antley was overwhelmingly credited with saving that horse’s life and Charismatic went on to a breeding career.
I also don’t see the problem as you did on the quote with a trainer choosing what races to put a horse in for the best interest of the team or corporation that owns the horse, that’s life. One has to pick their battles and be in top form TO WIN (that’s the goal), often against fresh horses specifically trained for that race. The goal is not enter every imaginable race, and the trainer would be worse than an idiot to think so.
“Even Street Sense’s racing program has been planned with the Breeders’ Cup in mind. He was kept out of the Belmont Stakes because the colt’s trainer, Carl Nafzger, did not think he would hold up to a schedule that included the Belmont, the Travers and the Breeders’ Cup.”
I see registries and breeders as more of a marriage, not a dictatorship. EACH partner in a marriage has needs, and power to negotiate solutions. Changes need to be made according to the environment that are beneficial to BOTH parties. Breeders DO have power for change. Don’t believe for a minute the European Registries will not change to keep our business. Partnerships that one party rules all are not healthy or productive.
Very well said, Fairview.
Chris, the Hanoverian Verband already allowed it for the British Breeding program along with several other euro wb registries. The KWPN already changed here do to breeders’ pressure and started a hunter book. Fairview is exactly right.
And yes, you are lying. You absolutely know that I have european bloodlined horses for my breeding program and, yet, you get on this forum and post that I don’t and that I am against having them. YOU KNOWING AND PURPOSELY LIED for the sole purpose of being inflammatory. I am calling you on your lies, chris. Care to explain your reasons?
The whole point is that they should NOT be operating here.
You guys are getting exactly ONE warning here. Cut out the sniping or the thread gets closed.
Please shut it down, Erin. Kathy obviously doesn’t even remember that SHE started the sniping.
And yes, this is my last post on this subject.
