THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

[Sister_Margarita]

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2605166]
What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.[/QUOTE]

Owning a stallion opens up a whole new can of expenses, don’t think that makes it any cheaper! Owning a stallion and the associated handling and promotion is a full time job with full time expenses in itself. Unless you are a big operation with big farm backup, standing a stallion is no small job. Spread that out over each foal, and you are again up in costs.

Premium mare discount often comes with a premium mare investment up front.

[M_O_Connor]

I am certainly not expecting a profit–it’s not likely that ours will be offered for sale…I’ve looked at it from the point of view that it costs a certain amount to maintain our farm and horses, and it will cost a bit more to breed our mare and raise a youngster…basically, overhead to get her bred, then the cost of one more mouth to feed. (I’m grateful that all but one among ours are very easy keepers.)

A major consideration has to be that though the costs (within a range) are pretty fixed to breed a mare and raise a baby to whatever point you plan on selling it, the prices that such a baby will bring will necessarily fluctuate. It might COST a certain amount to produce a young horse, but it doesn’t guarantee that buyers will be willing to pay that much to purchase it.

How do the Europeans do it? Are they paying less to produce at the same time that their young horses regularly command higher prices on the selling side? How do they manage it? That’s what needs to be figured out, it seems.

[Molly_Malone]

so nobody puts their own time down as a cost?

Now you know what labor of love means.

[county]

If your adding all these extra costs and not recovering them then why do it if the goal is profit? If its a hooby then theres no profit or goal of one. If its a business and you know you can’t recover extra costs I’d think your not running the business very efficently. One should at least try and be real about it I’d think.

[TKR]

Owning a stallion is alot of trouble because you have to deal with incoming mares or shipping semen – so you have to have the facilities for the stallion and mares or AI equipment as well as the knowledge and experience or good help to breed or collect. Of course you also have to care for him through the rest of the year, too. The advertising and competing is another ball game as well as approvals. If you own or stand a stallion, it’s because you like stallions, not because you are raking in the chips!
PennyG

[acottongim]

Right on STF (although I really could have NOT known what it cost me this early in the am! LOL).

We breed because we love the smell of new born babies, the velvet noses, whuffs of breath, the challenge of picking the right stallion for the right mare and seeing that outcome 'in the flesh", the excitement of bringing a baby into the world and watching it grow up to be an outstanding citizen, etc. We don’t breed to get rich.

And there are MANY variables in breeding. Prime example. My mare Cory - the love of my life (and yes, 3/4 T’bred - but neither dam nor sire were OTTB). She gave me one foal with minimal costs (aprox $4000 for breeding and vet fees). That was in 2003. From 2003 until 2006 I tried everything to get her in foal again. We racked up EASILY close to $8000 or $9000 in breeding and vet fees alone to get her preg - 3 vets told me to give up. I have a BEAUTIFUL filly this year out of her, who isn’t for sale for any price, but would have easily have been a $10,000 filly if she was regardless of what it cost us to get her on the ground. We rebred her for a full sibling and have $1700 in her for breeding and vet fees - so let’s round it up to $2000 to make it easier. I am not counting the mare’s food, hay, costs to have my barn, the normal vaccinations, farrier, etc as I would have those costs regardless. Also not in those figures (except maybe in the last one) are the costs of the foal - the added vacinations for the mare, the added feed costs for the mare and foal feed, the post birthing vet costs, the farrier for the foal etc. My figures above are strictly the stud fee, insemination costs, ultrasounds, Hcg, oxytocin, lutalyce, trip calls, flushes for the mare, biopsy, cultures, etc. And this is from a friend that is the SO so he didn’t charge me to actually INSEMINATE my mare - would have upped the price if he or the vet had charged for that service. It is a crap shoot. Oh and my stud fee was $1250 in all the above breedings.

[STF]

Not all expenses will be the same for each breeder, thats just common sense. But this gives you an idea of what it does cost to put a foal on the ground from a lot of our prespectives and those can plug in their own montly cost numbers and get an idea.
There is still a lot of allocated % costs I could add in. Farm costs % such as fencing, fixing things (which we know happens daily!!), Fuel going back and forth for feed/hay, % of cost for making our own hay (sorry, but its NOT free, even if you do make it!! LOL… it still takes costs to make it and bale it). Fertalizer and weed control. Minerals if added that year etc. There is so much Im leaving out on this rough estimate.

And like someone else said, the botox cost due to the huge bags under our eyes for weeks of foal watch, prenatal care and worry. And, dont forget the midnight coffee/expresso expenses too! LOL

[county]

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in. I figure 1/2 for personal and 1/2 for the livestock. But when you spread it out over 100 head like we do versus say 5 head its going to be a huge differance.

[Hillside_H_Ranch]

I think those expenses are right on for a lot of people here. Fortunately my expenses aren’t quite that high; you all should move to the mid-west! Seriously, good grazing land/haying land here is $2000/acre and I don’t even live in the middle of no-where; actually live about 10 minutes outside a moderate sized college town and only about 1 hour from downtown Kansas City. Hay prices are still painfully high, though, because of the shortages in the last couple of years. My veterinary costs are lower, which is a blessing, but some of that difference is made up in using frozen semen (which I’m starting to use more and more) and all the risks and time associated with that. Our largest expense is the development of the raw land once we purchased it; the fencing, the barn, the equipment and the insane amount of labor that it constantly requires to keep it up. Then of course all the regular costs of the horses; feed, hay (which we are feeding right now; not enough good pasture for everyone-just too dry here), farrier care, vaccines, etc. And there is always at least one major illness or injury every year it seems! So I don’t think that spreadsheet is really that far off, even for those of us lucky enough to live in “cheaper” geographical locations.

[STF]

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in.

Only parts of your mortgage can be figured in, only the part that supports the business you claim on your tax returns. PS - fence and taxes are a variable cost! wink

[county]

Actually I was talking real costs not for the IRS.

[STF]

Do you not run by IRS standards?

[county]

Yep and do what my CPA says should be done when it comes to taxes.

[CathyKb]

The estimates are really very realistic and sad. That is why most breeders do it for love! Also I have known so many breeders this year with $xx,xxx vet bills for illnesses and injuries for their foals. Maybe all breeders should post their costs on their websites, just to remind potential buyers of their costs and what it takes to breed them a wonderful horse.:yes: :yes: :yes: :yes:

And this does not include the labor of love!!

[Tamara_in_TN]

[QUOTE=Equine Reproduction;2605254]
But I know of many, many more really well bred, phenomenal performance horses that the owners are doing everything right and they still get only a handful of breedings a year.

Sheesh…after reading through all of this, I really should have my head examined for even THINKING about breeding a mare.

QUOTE]

well…it is kinda like growing hay

we have a financial planner who comes every Jan and reviews the numbers…employees paid,fertilizers spread, depreciations,taxes,insurance,equipment payments and so on…

 those numbers are plugged back into number of acres in tillage and expected crop outputs and finally....what we must sell the hay for per ton producted to break even...and then make a profit on top of that....and remember we have no outside source of income


so we know in Jan what we must make per ton thru the year and that sets the base price....

               if a horse grower figures all their costs for a year and at the end of the year has to sell a baby colt for $32,634 dollars (or some other ghastly figure) then it is silly to even try such a thing when the base price for a similar product is $4000.....


                     now sure you can use the IRS loop holes and deductions for 5 years to "make a profit" and that will send some money back to to you....but imagine if they said you must  show a profit in 24 mos....that gives a more accurate real wolrd view of things.....

    I have an old book dating back to to 1920's...it talks then about horses working in the carriage services in the big NE cities coming mby railcar load from the midwest where "grain is plentiful and horses are cheaper off the farms"....things have not changed so much today

       Tamara in TN

[Ridge_Runner]

@county;2605512

Fixed costs such as a morgage, taxes, fences etc. for sure should be figured in. I figure 1/2 for personal and 1/2 for the livestock. But when you spread it out over 100 head like we do versus say 5 head its going to be a huge differance.

That is a very good point and one reason my overhead costs are minimal per horse. I have 30 horses between a stallion, mares, and young stock and breeding is not my only business…I also board and train. The area in which you live does have a lot to do with it also. I can’t raise a foal as inexpensively as a rancher with 4000 acres on a homesteaded ranch with no mortgage but I can raise one for less than someone in a high land value area.

One really good way to keep down costs…and again economies of scale are at work in a larger farm situation…is to buy hay in bulk. I buy it by the tractor trailer load from New York and I save a lot of money over buying it in small quantities from the local hay dealers like I suspect many of the smaller breeders with a couple of mares do. I will bring in a truck every two months at minimum.

I’ll bet I save a fortune doing my own trims. Here is some math for you. I have 30 horses and let’s say I trim them every six weeks on average. That is 8.6 trims a year per horse x 30 horses =258 trimmings @ $30 a trim is $7,700 a year. Granted…learning to trim your own horses isn’t for everyone…but it is one way to save a lot of money when you have a good sized herd and the trim session is a great training opportunity with the youngsters. I also have a hard time finding farriers/trimmers that handle foals the way I like to and that will be patient with them.

Costs certainly are a lot higher when you pay $1500 stud fees and have to use AI…but in some breeds…you have to compete with those who do not do that and just because it cost you $4000 to breed your mare one year, does not mean that farm down the road with their own stallion spent that much to do it. I think the market is getting more and more competitive…to include the sport horse market and keeping down your costs is going to be critical for those who are actually in business and have to show a profit at some point.

[Pronzini]

@rcloisonne;2605419

Kathy, surely you know the “secret” of making a small fortune breeding horses, don’t you? You start with a large fortune! :lol:

The TB folks have it right. Many yearlings sell for high six figures if their breeding is what folks are looking for (lots of “black type”). Of course, the stud fees for top TB sires are in the six figure range too and you must ship and board your mare where the stallion stands, use the stallion station’s vets, etc… Yep, that’s how real money is made. A $10,000 TB yearling is considered bargain basement and is usually not well bred.

You can make real money but you can lose real money too. It is not unheard of to sell a horse for $10,000 that you have a six figure fee into. The stallion notorious for that is Awesome Again. Check out last year’s returns on a $125,000 fee:

http://www.thoroughbredtimes.com/stallion-directory/stallion.aspx?stallion_no=1439425

Out of 20 yearlings sold, 1 sold for less than $5000, 5 sold for less than $10,000, and 10 more sold for less than the stud fee. And you better believe the other production costs are as high or steeper.

Just keeping it real

[county]

Can’t agree more DB theres many many factors involved to cut costs. Doing your own farrier and vet work is a very big one. I do my own A.I. work, virtually all my own vet work. My livestock is on grass from mid May till late Nov. saves a whole lot of hay which is cheap here to begin with. I raise my own but you can buy it for $35 to $50 a ton oats is a record high this year but still only $2.25 a bushel ( 32 lbs )

[STF]

Racing and Sport Horse are two different industries. You cant compare the two.

[county]

I don’t think anyones comparing them really just saying costs can vary a great deal around the country and as to how a person chooses to do things. Theres no rule that says something has to be done a certain way or that someone has to spend X number of dollars. Its a personal choice. There is no right or wrong only differant.