Tori is champion at talent search finals

[SnicklefritzG]

This is a worthwhile topic to discuss because (a) a high profile rider was found to have been riding a very successful horse who was caught with substances in his system that should not have been there (b) It is highlighting critical issues in this industry.

The Lance Armstrong debacle created a LOT of conversation on social media, in the mainstream news, on BB’s etc. Was there speculation there? I’m sure there was. Was it unproductive? In the end it doesn’t matter because the topic has more visibility, the notion of racing clean is something some team managers are trying to do focus on, etc.

The huge amount of debate highlights just how sensitive this issue is in the equestrian community and how much we could benefit from changes to the system.

[QUOTE=skydy;8347851]
Just because rampant speculation is “commonplace” doesn’t mean that it is worthwhile.

ynl063w doesn’t understand why people indulge in the practice nor does she have to like it ( I understand the objection and agree).

It isn’t necessarily that someone has a different “opinion” than you do, it is that they disagree with the speculation that is really out of the purview of anyone who is not immediately involved in this situation.

I have an opinion, but is based only upon the knowledge that I have about the matter at hand (not much).

I think perhaps what ynl063w is saying is that, while we can all have opinions, it is unproductive (see the media references you mention :)) to go WAY out there with the speculation.

At some point in time, the conversation becomes so hypothetical that it is at best pointless, and at worst hurtful.[/QUOTE]

[2tempe]

[QUOTE=altereq;8347602]
I catch rode a bunch as a junior, in addition, I had my own junior hunter who I kept with a BNT and was fairly competitive on. I was never anywhere near as talented as Tori is, but I semi-knowingly rode lots of prep-ed horses throughout my junior career.

As the rider, is isn’y your job to have an opinion. If you have said opinion, you lose rides. In the moment, it is hard to tell which horses are drugged, I have only found out in hindsight when pushing for answers from grooms that I have close relationships with. My horse rarely got drugged, but I know now, that for big classes he would get a shot, as a junior, I could barely tell and it was made clear that wasn’t something to be asking about. Back then, I was strongly encouraged to help my trainer with jumps and go with him to learn the business and learn by watching others instead of being back at the barn while my horses were getting put together. Horses are still fresh when they’re on drugs, they feel mostly the same and as a rider riding a horse you barely know, its hard to say if its a quiet horse or something else is up.

The elite horse show world is one where nothing is important except for a person’s ability to ride a horse and make money. To say no to a ride is feels crazy because it is such an amazing opportunity. My trainer was pretty much my personal God, so it isn’t particularly realistic to ask teenagers to turn their backs on the approval of someone they’ve been trying to get respected by because of morals that aren’t really endorsed in that circle.[/QUOTE]

This^^ is perhaps one of the most telling posts on this thread. Last sentence in particular.

Based on videos and COTH articles, I believe that TC is a very good rider, and no she doesn’t need horses drugged to get around a course.

But sadly she (and her team) are perpetuating the environment described by the above poster.
Winning is more important that ethics and morals.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=2tempe;8348052]
This^^ is perhaps one of the most telling posts on this thread. Last sentence in particular.

Based on videos and COTH articles, I believe that TC is a very good rider, and no she doesn’t need horses drugged to get around a course.

But sadly she (and her team) are perpetuating the environment described by the above poster.
Winning is more important that ethics and morals.[/QUOTE]

+1

[Cannonball]

[QUOTE=lauriep;8347328]
How the hell would I know what other people think? I know Tori doesn’t mind a fresh horse because we talked about it one time. But I do not presume to translate that into what her teams do and why. I am not affiliated with the barns. I know some of the players, but why would you think I can, or should, answer a question like that? The only things I KNOW are things I personally do or don’t do, and what I am told. Then I am left to decide if I believe what I was told.[/QUOTE]

Because you are/were so sure she would never need assistance riding. Clearly that isn’t what those very close to her believed.

She is a great rider! But this scenario shows me that she probably isn’t as great as we previously believed. There are some other amazing Junior riders that have ridden in the shadow of her fame. They have been cheated by her and her posse. You don’t see it this way and that’s OK. But they can’t undo what has been done.

[comingback]

[QUOTE=Cannonball;8348069]
Because you are/were so sure she would never need assistance riding. Clearly that isn’t what those very close to her believed. [/QUOTE]

I doubt they thought she needed assistance. However, I would think they would do what they thought was needed to prepare the horse to win.

@Cannonball;8348069

She is a great rider! But this scenario shows me that she probably isn’t as great as we previously believed. There are some other amazing Junior riders that have ridden in the shadow of her fame. They have been cheated by her and her posse. You don’t see it this way and that’s OK. But they can’t undo what has been done.

You also assume that this is the only game in town doing some form of “prep”, chemically or otherwise.

The fact is, many people use some type of calming paste/injection/lunging/etc combination. It just so happens that the people caught in this instance are high profile, thus the reason we are discussing it. I think it’s inappropriate to hang one rider out to dry and make judgements on her ability for practices that are prevalent in the hunter world. That being said, I would agree that the culture needs to change.

[SnicklefritzG]

It isn’t grasping at straws. This sort of thing happens all the time. An event occurs, people draw up scenarios, assign likelihood to each, etc. This is a normal part of discussions and debates, investigations, things one encounters in a wide variety of situations in life.

That you feel the need to reply by poking fun rather than debating and discussing in a rational manner says a lot. As I mentioned before, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you can’t debate or discuss in a rational manner instead of poking fun at people, then my recommendation would be to just avoid the topic, etc.

[QUOTE=ynl063w;8347831]
Wait. Did you really just accuse ME of grasping at straws? I have never laughed out loud more than I am doing right this very minute. Are you NOT the one who just came up with four completely made up by you scenarios about Tori Colvin, and then GUESSED at which ones are most likely true based on nothing but your favorite options?[/QUOTE]

[AllisonWunderlund]

I thinks some posters on this thread need a tube or 9 of Perfect Prep.

Sorry, could not resist.

[Cannonball]

@comingback;8348085

I doubt they thought she needed assistance. However, I would think they would do what they thought was needed to prepare the horse to win.

I’m confused! So she didn’t need it to ride the horse but did need it to win? That is the point again. They have apparently led the way in creating a show hunter ideal that doesn’t exist in an unaltered world. If this horse or others can’t win without this crap, then join the crowd. We have numerous very athletic, beautiful horses, with amazing jumps and movement that are not an easy ride. Sometimes all the stars align and we lay it down other times we look like we shouldn’t be at Devon or Indoors. Look at the show record of these horses and compare it to the show records of some of the other top junior rider’s mounts. The consistent results are phenomenal (almost unnatural).

And you are partially correct, I am saying (not assuming) that not all others are not injecting GABA into their horses and are playing within the rules of the USEF.

[mvp]

@Midge;8347955

Oh good lord. You say this like it’s the first time someone high profile has been caught doing less by their horses. In what way do you think this will affect us more than any other drug infraction?

Is that last one a serious question? Here’s my answer:

The civil suit and transcript make it different. The casual remarks about drugging an already winning horse for even better performance; the willingness to drug but intense fight (merely) about who would be blamed suggest that problem that is wide and deep in HunterWorld. That the litigants are talented, wealthy and already way at the top of the sport makes their cheating note-worthy. For those of us within the sport, it’s deflating-- if, with all those resources, you want a performance from a horse that you still have to drug to get, how am I with my lesser horse and team going to compete clean? And for the outside world, it indeed reads like a scandal among greedy wealthy people in a sport people already weren’t sure they liked because its so elitist.

I can see why someone might use these transcripts to write an exposé. Why not combine that with the Humble debacle last year and the USEF’s rather overly-careful-not-to-close-all-the-loop-holes-too-fast behavior about sprucing up it’s D&M rules?

Seriously. Our governing body must be very afraid of being sued for someone not delivering “due process” (or similar) an accused cheater because it tightens up its D&M rules ever so slowly, only as forced and to the extent that some case like Humble’s matters. It will be interesting to see what the USEF feels compelled to do (or not) in light of the Colvin suit.

[sockmonkey]

Obviously other trainers/riders/owners are pasting their horses, too, because I find it difficult to imagine that Perfect Prep can last in business with just one trainer/rider/owner buying their product.

To say that TC is not as good a rider as we think because she rode a horse that tested positive is ridiculous. There is always the possibility that this was the only horse that needed PP and GABA. Innocent until proven guilty. She proved it in the class that started this thread when she rode 3 other horses that she never sat on before.

[NCRider]

Folks, you can’t have it both ways. Insiders have been making two contradictory arguments on this topic for years
a) cheating is so pervasive in the hunter world that people who get caught shouldn’t be puished or judged (i.e. Tori shouldn’t be judged because everyone does it) AND
b) it’s unfair to paint the entire hunter industry as abusive because if everyone was doing it, more people would get caught, most h/j trainers are salt of the earth horsemen, cheating is rare, don’t judge everyone by a few bad apples, blah blah blah.

[dags]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8348093]

That you feel the need to reply by poking fun rather than debating and discussing in a rational manner says a lot. As I mentioned before, you are entitled to your opinion, but if you can’t debate or discuss in a rational manner instead of poking fun at people, then my recommendation would be to just avoid the topic, etc.[/QUOTE]

Seriously??? Were you not the one the posted the Zorak thread?

Tori is not the bad guy here, she is the victim of a culture that began loooong before she ever threw her leg over a pony. The barrage against her is tiresome and detracts from a logical discussion about how to address the real problem, which is that the ideal has become nearly impossible to achieve, even for the best of the best.

[Midge]

[QUOTE=mvp;8348206]
Is that last one a serious question? Here’s my answer:

The civil suit and transcript make it different.
I can see why someone might use these transcripts to write an exposé. Why not combine that with the Humble debacle last year and the USEF’s rather overly-careful-not-to-close-all-the-loop-holes-too-fast behavior about sprucing up it’s D&M rules?
.[/QUOTE]

Once again, not the first time. Maybe the first time the transcripts have been put out on line and a BB community ready to read and discuss ad nauseum, but nothing particularly new here.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=dags;8348322]
Seriously??? Were you not the one the posted the Zorak thread?

Tori is not the bad guy here, she is the victim of a culture that began loooong before she ever threw her leg over a pony. The barrage against her is tiresome and detracts from a logical discussion about how to address the real problem, which is that the ideal has become nearly impossible to achieve, even for the best of the best.[/QUOTE]

Two totally different things. One group of threads addresses overall style of a large group of people (praying mantis, anteater, etc.). Another group of threads is addressing specific drug and doping infractions for specific riders.

There will be discussions as well as active and intense debates on any top rider who is caught riding a doped horse. What we don’t need are people making fun of individuals using nasty or rude language.

If you feel the debate about Tori is “tiresome” you can make a decision to just not read the thread and decline to participate. The fact that the thread is at what, 10 pages, says a lot about how people feel. If it was a random 2’6" rider doing Bit-O-Straw hunters I don’t think anyone would care and the thread certainly wouldn’t be this long or have multiple instances elsewhere on the forum.

There is going to be a lot of comments made about any top rider or top owner who doesn’t have the gumption to step away and say “we will show clean”. I would find it hard to believe, based on what are in the files that IPESQ posted from the hearing that Tori and Betsee Parker were completely clueless about what was going on in the barn with the horses.

[dags]

But it’s the same thing over. and over. and over. again. And really sound, actionable ideas that are going to require some serious thought and dissection are getting drowned out in favor of this board’s fondness for speculation. And then the thread is 66+ pages long with a non-navigable train of thought, tons of misinformation, and various odd couples dueling it out in between the lines. And it gets us no closer to actually solving a problem.

Rinse. Repeat.

It becomes a challenge to think of this place as somewhere you could actually organize a concerted effort, should one be inspired to do so…

[Midge]

@SnicklefritzG;8348406

Two totally different things. One group of threads addresses overall style of a large group of people (praying mantis, anteater, etc.). Another group of threads is addressing specific drug and doping infractions for specific riders.

Why does it matter that they are two different things? Poking fun, is poking fun. Rational discussion is rational discussion. You poked fun then called someone else out for doing the same thing. Not exactly rational discussion.

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Midge;8348459]
Why does it matter that they are two different things? Poking fun, is poking fun. Rational discussion is rational discussion. You poked fun then called someone else out for doing the same thing. Not exactly rational discussion.[/QUOTE]

That is actually not the case. There are people in this thread and others referred to people as “fools” and other stuff. Personal insults like that (along with bad language) is quite a different matter from saying the style of a group of riders looks a certain way (anteater, praying mantis, …)

[SnicklefritzG]

[QUOTE=Midge;8348459]
Why does it matter that they are two different things? Poking fun, is poking fun. Rational discussion is rational discussion. You poked fun then called someone else out for doing the same thing. Not exactly rational discussion.[/QUOTE]

That is actually not the case. There are people in this thread and others referred to people as “fools” and other stuff. Personal insults like that (along with bad language) is quite a different matter from saying the style of a group of riders looks a certain way (anteater, praying mantis, …)

[Midge]

[QUOTE=SnicklefritzG;8348487]
That is actually not the case. There are people in this thread and others referred to people as “fools” and other stuff. Personal insults like that (along with bad language) is quite a different matter from saying the style of a group of riders looks a certain way (anteater, praying mantis, …)[/QUOTE]

Except you never mentioned bad language and insults. The quoted post said ‘poking fun’. Twice. You actually started a thread for the sole purpose of poking fun at others. You have no high ground here.

[RugBug]

@AllisonWunderlund;8348129

I thinks some posters on this thread need a tube or 9 of Perfect Prep.

Sorry, could not resist.[/QUOTE]

Hahaha! I bet we’d all pick different posters for the 9 tubes, though.

[QUOTE=Cannonball;8348188] They have apparently led the way in creating a show hunter ideal that doesn’t exist in an unaltered world.

I’m sorry, but there is no way BP, TC, BC, etc led the way in creating this show hunter. It was a group effort that has been in the making since before TC was even born.

Look at the show record of these horses and compare it to the show records of some of the other top junior rider’s mounts. The consistent results are phenomenal (almost unnatural).

Your comment actually points to TC being the truly gifted rider that people hold her up to be. Other juniors don’t match her results, not because they aren’t prepping, because you’d be extremely naive to think they weren’t, but because Tori is just that much better. She rides better than many, many pros and it shows in her results.

And you are partially correct, I am saying (not assuming) that not all others are not injecting GABA into their horses and are playing within the rules of the USEF.

Not all others, but there are enough that USEF is focused on the drug. If it was just a few here or there, they wouldn’t be so focused on it. YOU may show at those levels clean, but there are plenty who don’t.

The speculation on these threads really isn’t all that helpful…especially when people believe it as fact. The amateur moderation (don’t read it, if you don’t like it) also doesn’t help…you only want to hear from people that agree with you? Fine. I prefer discourse that has counter opinions. I think they sharpen the discussion and help to get to the core.