[QUOTE=lauriep;8347188]
I don’t read minds, so cannot tell you the answers from her perspective.[/QUOTE]
What the hell is wrong with you? Everyone else on this thread can!
[QUOTE=ynl063w;8347208]
This was brought up a few weeks ago but I never asked the question. How would one go about determining what amount of GABA would produce the desired effect in a particular horse, without exceeding the USEF established limit? I would think it would require a whole lot of experimentation as well as access to a lab that was set up to determine levels of GABA in blood samples using the same assay that the USEF lab uses. I also don’t think it would be safe to assume that a dose that keeps one horse under the limit would be that way for all horses.
If the plan was to try different amounts at horse shows in a trial and error type scenario, I would have expected more than one positive result by now.[/QUOTE]
There’s some guesswork involved but it seemed obvious to me from the questioning on the hearing transcript that the USEF believes competitors are trying to stay at low levels and not test.
If you have a vet helping you with this who knows how long GABA takes to dissipate in the body, then obviously you’re ahead of the game. But even if you don’t, you can play around a bit at home. Give the horse 0.5 ccs. Hack him. See how quickly it takes to “hit.” Ride until you feel a little edge again. Assume it takes that longish to clear. Try a little more-- oh, he’s half asleep. Ok, he only needs 0.5 ccs. Experiment giving it to him earlier and earlier. Just fool around until you find the bare minimum that gives you the effect you need. And keep the horse a titch dehydrated too (you’ll see why later).
And then when the testers come… stall. And stall and stall. Say no to them drawing blood. Make them wait for pee. Which of course the horse won’t do cuz he’s a little dry. Wait and wait and wait as long as they’ll allow and then relent for the bloodtest when you must. Hoping all the while that because you only gave a little and because it dissipates… it’s gone down enough.
These people aren’t dumb. They know GABA is a naturally occuring substance. So they know the USEF’s got some threshold. As long as you give just a smidge, just enough to take off the egde-- you can probably escape detection enough of the time to make it still worthwhile.
There HAVE been a bunch of positive GABA tests. What makes you think folks aren’t sharing notes? If so-and-so got an infraction for Amount X, try using Amount X-1.
TRAINER: “Ah, VA-friend-trainer, you got set down. Bummer for you, how much d’you give?”
FRIEND TRAINER: “3 ccs about 10 minutes before we schooled.”
TRAINER: “Good to know, I’ll try 2 ccs and give it 30 minutes out.”
I don’t think it’s crazy to think that people have vets helping them out and they’re trying to give just a smidge-- just enough to take the edge off-- but enough that they can skate under what I presume is a conservative USEF threshold for a naturally occuring substance. They KNOW it’s not zero tolerance. There’s some number and it’s probably a conservatively high number-- you just have to get under it.
Yeah, there’s some trial an error but we KNOW there’s trial an error. How else do you get to 9 tubes of majik paste without someone trying 7 or 8 and thinking it wasn’t enough. And did you see how there was a whole formula for when to give them? Where else does that come from but trial and error? Clearly there’s plenty of trying this and trying that at work here. If nothing else, the described pasting regimen illustrates that this team has a “prep” plan that they came up with themselves that has nothing to do with the manufacturer’s instructions.
How do you know when you’ve lunged enough? Trial and error. Do 30 minutes and the horse is wild at the show, try 45 next time. Do an hour and he’s falling down tired, try 30 minutes next time.
So much of prep is trial and error. What makes you think it’s not the same with prohibited substances?
I also presume that you don’t give GABA every show, every ride, every time. If you show up and Dobbin has his quiet head in the game you don’t need it. If he’s wild in warmup, get the needle. Likely sometimes the horses are tested and they were actually clean because it’s not an “every ride” kind of thing.
I mean, this horse has collapsed veins apparently. HOW DO YOU THINK THAT HAPPENED? I’m guessing… experimentation.
Also, unless I am incorrect THIS horse had a lightish show schedule. Which means he may not have been tested that frequently. It’s random. I have a friend who has been tested what seems like every show this year. I have another who does the same division, same area, same shows-- she’s never been tested. I don’t think you can assume that Inclusive was tested enough that FOR SURE he’d have tested positive before if they’d been using GABA for a while. I just don’t think you can conclude that.
[QUOTE=lauriep;8347113]
I do, both in the show environment and through the GHM Horsemastership Clinic. I have also known Betsee since we were kids and rode together in MN. So I know the PERSON she is. Is she competitive and likes to win? Damn skippy. But is she a cheat and win at any cost person? Absolutely not. Tori blew me away the very first time I saw her ride (and I have worked for or been associated with the BEST we have ever had) and she has only gotten better, in my estimation. As with all things, there is more to it all, but not my business to share. But I will take on anyone who disparages this kid’s ability, or thinks she needs the “help.” She SO does not.[/QUOTE]
Then explain why they (whoever that is) did it? You are somewhat connected and seem to know without a doubt that she doesn’t ever need help. Then why would those even closer to her decide she did? If it was just this once that the horse wasn’t behaving why not just see what happens? Maybe you don’t win this time because you didn’t have the best horse. Wouldn’t it be a huge risk to inject GABA for the first time ever at Derby finals?
How the hell would I know what other people think? I know Tori doesn’t mind a fresh horse because we talked about it one time. But I do not presume to translate that into what her teams do and why. I am not affiliated with the barns. I know some of the players, but why would you think I can, or should, answer a question like that? The only things I KNOW are things I personally do or don’t do, and what I am told. Then I am left to decide if I believe what I was told.
Medicating a horse does involve trial and error. Remember that according to Brigid, sometimes you medicate too much and you get rails (like at junior finals). I’m pretty sure a rider of Tori’s level is involved in determining whether the horse is quiet or not. I know I’ve been asked whether my horse is quiet or if he needs to go for a lunge and if my trainer is willing to let me make this determination (though I was often very very wrong), I’m sure Tori is asked as well. I don’t believe for a second that Tori did not participated in the “evening meetings” where prep was discussed (per the transcript).
But it really doesn’t matter if she knew then because she sure as heck knew a year ago and yet she continued to ride the horses. And it isn’t like they are alleging they walked away from River’s Edge on some high moral ground (whether it be related to drugs or training techniques), they claim they were told to leave.
How cool would it be if Tori turned pro and showed Betsee’s horses under a clean program. Maybe COTH could do a year-long behind the scenes report on Tori, with voluntary drug tests at the biggest competitions. Not just to prove she is clean, but to prove to the sport that it can be done.
I’ve read both Colvin threads at length. I do not know Tori but I have seen her ride a few hundred rounds in person ages 8-16; I completely agree with posters saying that you really can’t tell how special of a rider she is unless you see it in person, on many many different horses. I was very sad/upset/angry about the violations because I’ve seen how talented she is… how can you need MORE when you’ve got that rider on the world’s best horses.
Anyway, what I do find it interesting is that the Talent Search Finals’ format was the best possible class for Tori to win after this mess. She proved she can outride her peers on 4 different horses that she has no stable management of. All the horses came from different BNT with different programs. Yes - those eq horses are prepped for weeks for this event (I’m talking about fitness level, pro rides, jumper classes, yes… lunging, etc, staying positive here), but she rode them all the best.
Yet people seem more upset about this win (accomplished largely on other peoples horses’) than her riding the actual hunter in question a few weeks ago, winning the first round at HITS.
I wish so much of this energy would be directed at our governing body because as it stands, it’s easier to hate Tori for winning this class than it is to figure out how to incorporate fair judging standards and handle violations. The penalties have been served but they don’t make sense, so the anger will continue.
[QUOTE=Midge;8347227]
What the hell is wrong with you? Everyone else on this thread can![/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol:
[QUOTE=vxf111;8347242]
There’s some guesswork involved but it seemed obvious to me from the questioning on the hearing transcript that the USEF believes competitors are trying to stay at low levels and not test.
If you have a vet helping you with this who knows how long GABA takes to dissipate in the body, then obviously you’re ahead of the game. But even if you don’t, you can play around a bit at home. Give the horse 0.5 ccs. Hack him. See how quickly it takes to “hit.” Ride until you feel a little edge again. Assume it takes that longish to clear. Try a little more-- oh, he’s half asleep. Ok, he only needs 0.5 ccs. Experiment giving it to him earlier and earlier. Just fool around until you find the bare minimum that gives you the effect you need. And keep the horse a titch dehydrated too (you’ll see why later).
And then when the testers come… stall. And stall and stall. Say no to them drawing blood. Make them wait for pee. Which of course the horse won’t do cuz he’s a little dry. Wait and wait and wait as long as they’ll allow and then relent for the bloodtest when you must. Hoping all the while that because you only gave a little and because it dissipates… it’s gone down enough.
These people aren’t dumb. They know GABA is a naturally occuring substance. So they know the USEF’s got some threshold. As long as you give just a smidge, just enough to take off the egde-- you can probably escape detection enough of the time to make it still worthwhile.
There HAVE been a bunch of positive GABA tests. What makes you think folks aren’t sharing notes? If so-and-so got an infraction for Amount X, try using Amount X-1.
TRAINER: “Ah, VA-friend-trainer, you got set down. Bummer for you, how much d’you give?”
FRIEND TRAINER: “3 ccs about 10 minutes before we schooled.”
TRAINER: “Good to know, I’ll try 2 ccs and give it 30 minutes out.”
I don’t think it’s crazy to think that people have vets helping them out and they’re trying to give just a smidge-- just enough to take the edge off-- but enough that they can skate under what I presume is a conservative USEF threshold for a naturally occuring substance. They KNOW it’s not zero tolerance. There’s some number and it’s probably a conservatively high number-- you just have to get under it.
Yeah, there’s some trial an error but we KNOW there’s trial an error. How else do you get to 9 tubes of majik paste without someone trying 7 or 8 and thinking it wasn’t enough. And did you see how there was a whole formula for when to give them? Where else does that come from but trial and error? Clearly there’s plenty of trying this and trying that at work here. If nothing else, the described pasting regimen illustrates that this team has a “prep” plan that they came up with themselves that has nothing to do with the manufacturer’s instructions.[/QUOTE]
I’m not doubting your scenario at all; it was just something that came to my mind when this was first brought up. I think your scenario is much more likely than thinking that there is any real science behind finding the magic dosage that will be effective yet undetectable above the set limit.
I would expect that Perfect Prep would be easier to experiment with since it’s not something that is tested for (or at least I don’t think it is, but I could be wrong). I don’t even know what’s in it that makes it so magical.
And by more than one positive, I was speaking of the Parker/Colvin team specifically. I do know that there have been others that have been caught.
Sorry, I wasn’t arguing with you at all. Your post just reminded me that I was wondering about all this back when these threads started.
ETA: I’m not sure that assuming that when the horse has a little edge back after being drugged, that the drug has cleared the body and can’t be detected. At least it doesn’t work that way with humans and cocaine, LSD, or marijuana (especially marijuana).
Anytime I have had a horse tested at a USEF show, the blood was drawn when the vet showed up. Period. It was not optional. There was no choice for the exhibitor about when or if the blood sample would be taken. The urine sample was at the discretion of the tester, and if the tester wanted to skip it after waiting a while, that was strictly the tester’s call. Not the case with the blood.
I catch rode a bunch as a junior, in addition, I had my own junior hunter who I kept with a BNT and was fairly competitive on. I was never anywhere near as talented as Tori is, but I semi-knowingly rode lots of prep-ed horses throughout my junior career.
As the rider, is isn’y your job to have an opinion. If you have said opinion, you lose rides. In the moment, it is hard to tell which horses are drugged, I have only found out in hindsight when pushing for answers from grooms that I have close relationships with. My horse rarely got drugged, but I know now, that for big classes he would get a shot, as a junior, I could barely tell and it was made clear that wasn’t something to be asking about. Back then, I was strongly encouraged to help my trainer with jumps and go with him to learn the business and learn by watching others instead of being back at the barn while my horses were getting put together. Horses are still fresh when they’re on drugs, they feel mostly the same and as a rider riding a horse you barely know, its hard to say if its a quiet horse or something else is up.
The elite horse show world is one where nothing is important except for a person’s ability to ride a horse and make money. To say no to a ride is feels crazy because it is such an amazing opportunity. My trainer was pretty much my personal God, so it isn’t particularly realistic to ask teenagers to turn their backs on the approval of someone they’ve been trying to get respected by because of morals that aren’t really endorsed in that circle.
[QUOTE=MHM;8347394]
Anytime I have had a horse tested at a USEF show, the blood was drawn when the vet showed up. Period. It was not optional. There was no choice for the exhibitor about when or if the blood sample would be taken. The urine sample was at the discretion of the tester, and if the tester wanted to skip it after waiting a while, that was strictly the tester’s call. Not the case with the blood.[/QUOTE]
You hope for some delay. Doesn’t always work but you try if you can. Some testers are more patient than others and sometimes the vet doesn’t run right over.
Tori is a fantastic rider – its does not matter what she is on
The idea that just because horses haven’t tested positive the program is clean does not follow. Drug use and prepping is pervasive. See the discussion of cycling above for examples of this.
HDuckie… [edit] I wonder why you even wasted time with this Thread. IF you have nothing nice to say about Tori. [edit] That kid works hard, and is doing a fabulous job. Give credit where it is due. It is so funny how people hide behind a computer screen these days. [edit] and try to throw negative comments about another Rider. Grow up and learn to have respect for each other. IT is people like you that need to come to the “A” shows and compete against her then you can talk . YOU DISGUST ME with this. and I am sure would like to know your track record.? what and how many medals have you won.? How many top level shows have you been too and competed.? How many owners trust, and respect you enough to provide you with a horse to show. ? [edit]
JustaThought. YOU are RIGHT … Tori is a fantastic rider. and it sounds like to me that this HDuckie is just a piece of crap . what a jerk to come on here and start such a thread.
SHAME on the Mod’s for allowing such a trashing topic to be discussed and let mud be slung…
Whoa…that is really over the top. OP is entitled to her opinion. If you don’t like it, don’t read the thread.
Using words like [edit] etc. is completely unnecessary and uncalled for.
[QUOTE=JRT&Appy;8347639]
HDuckie… [edit] I wonder why you even wasted time with this Thread. IF you have nothing nice to say about Tori. [edit] That kid works hard, and is doing a fabulous job. Give credit where it is due. It is so funny how people hide behind a computer screen these days. [edit] and try to throw negative comments about another Rider. Grow up and learn to have respect for each other. IT is people like you that need to come to the “A” shows and compete against her then you can talk . YOU DISGUST ME with this. and I am sure would like to know your track record.? what and how many medals have you won.? How many top level shows have you been too and competed.? How many owners trust, and respect you enough to provide you with a horse to show. ? [edit][/QUOTE]
I’m not at all impressed that Tory Colvin got to where she is riding drugged horses. but, I’m not at all impressed with what passes as hunter “equitation” these days either. Just deal with it = your sport is 100% based on drugging horses and having skinny riders with their ass in the air to be successful. To be competitive, you have to do what they do, and look like they do. It’s become a fashion sport more than anything, like it or not, that is what it is. Fads come and go, whoever gets the leg up on the next fad will do just as well. Your sport is NOT about riding, it’s about the latest fad and who gets ahead of it first and who avoids the downside of it first. Hats off to Tory for getting ahead of the drugging trend, she got to take full advantage of it before it became 'questionable." I’m a capitalist at heart, and while I don’t necessarily like it, she nailed it. Learn to ride on horses drugged up to the hilt and then make that the norm. Winning!!!
Is it a full moon tonight or something? It would appear that a few wing nuts came loose from their moorings…
Ok, if it is cowardly to hide behind a computer screen then please tell us who you are? And please don’t cuss out a member of the forum. She has a right to her opinion without being threatened and name called, as do we all.
[QUOTE=JRT&Appy;8347639]
HDuckie… why are you being a total “B”… You are one BITTER BETTY here. AND you are a newbie. So I wonder why you even wasted time with this Thread. IF you have nothing nice to say about Tori. Then STFU. That kid works hard, and is doing a fabulous job. Give credit where it is due. It is so funny how people hide behind a computer screen these days. And YOU my dear are a low piece of scum to come on a public forum and try to throw negative comments about another Rider. Grow up and learn to have respect for each other. IT is people like you that need to come to the “A” shows and compete against her then you can talk . YOU DISGUST ME with this. and I am sure would like to know your track record.? what and how many medals have you won.? How many top level shows have you been too and competed.? How many owners trust, and respect you enough to provide you with a horse to show. ? Come on Darling please share … YOU jerk…:mad:[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JRT&Appy;8347642]JustaThought. YOU are RIGHT … Tori is a fantastic rider. and it sounds like to me that this HDuckie is just a piece of crap . what a jerk to come on here and start such a thread.
SHAME on the Mod’s for allowing such a trashing topic to be discussed and let mud be slung…[/QUOTE]
Oh, goodie. The Tuesday night entertainment has arrived.
