VA: Fox hound snatched by Peta employee; facing felony charges

[Trakehner]

“If everyone where like you, there would be no need for PETA/HSUS/SPCA.”

There is no valid use or need of Peta or Hsus…both support animal terrorism, forget that people’s lives are more important than animals lives (a la’ Newkirk’s “a rat is a dog is a boy”)…so screwed up they call people who care about kids more than a rat “specists”.

Sorry, stupid and some fairly screwed up minds and belief systems answering the calls of “cute puppy” and “cute kitty” in the propoganda ads for a terror group.

Neither Peta or Hsus care about animals…they care about raising money…neither group rescues animals or provides shelter…peta kills em for money and the hsus raises money from the non-thinking “feelers” out there.

[xeroxchick]

[QUOTE=rcloisonne;2536857]

Personally, I agree with Dr. Regan. We, as a species, are not smart enough, moral enough, nor ethical enough to lord over every sentient species we find “useful” on this planet.[/QUOTE]

The question beggs to be asked: Why on earth are you participationg on a forum for horse sports? If you do agre with Dr. Regan, you would have nothing to do with activities or discussions about horse ownership, care or riding. I smell a troll. A PETA troll.

[JSwan]

Caring for an animals welfare was not a concept discovered by HSUS or PETA - though they would have you believe otherwise.

As far as shooting an old hound - exactly what on earth is wrong with it? I’ll tell you what people don’t like about it - it’s an emotional reaction - not based on any facts at all.

Most folks put an old hound down with a needle these days anyway - if the hound knows the vet and the vet will come out to the kennel - it’s not too stressful.

It makes YOU feel better to take your dog to the vet to be put down. Your pet may have gone to the vet for years - several times a year - so though it’s stressful, going bye bye in the car with their momma and getting petted by lot of people is still a lot of fun for the little guy. His world is one of lots of humans petting him, tossing toys, lots of being inside with noise and lights and tv’s, going in the car, etc.

That is not the life of a foxhound. A foxhounds life is defined by the pack. He/She is part of a pack - and to be separated from that pack for any reason is something to be feared and dreaded. The hound is cared for by just a few people - who care for him or her very well. Those people, the huntsman in particular are the only people to really be trusted by the hound. If the hound is injured or ill, the person who does most, if not all the care - is the huntsman or a whip - the vet is used only if very necessary. The hound looks to the huntsman for guidance, for approval, and to the pack for everything else.

The hound is always with the pack. They sleep together, eat together, care for each other, fight, console each other, clean each others scrapes, protect each other - their existence is completely defined by the pack. Never ever would they want to leave it - they don’t want to be touched by strangers, they only trust a few people. They are incredible animals.

And you are telling me that it is cruel for a huntsman or other trusted person to take an old hound on a little walk and put it down where it feels safe and comfortable and loved? Non vets are not permitted to handle euthanasia drugs.

It is better to tear that hound away from the pack, bring it to an office full of bright lights, funny smells, people they don’t know, and have a stranger stick it with a needle? Exactly what is humane about that - from the HOUNDS perspective?

The important thing is what is best for the HOUND - not a human’s delicate sensibilities. Whatever is best for the hound should be done. And I’d rather a hound go for a short walk with a trusted human than go through the stress of a vet’s office.

If you agree with Dr. Regan - exactly why do you own a horse and participate on this BB? Are you somehow the only person moral enough to own a horse?

And which set of morals are you following? Because morals also depend on cultural, philosophical and religious background and beliefs. Or are you going to say that your set of morals are also better than everyone elses?

Bah - give me a break. If you’re a supporter of PETA or HSUS - and you own livestock or pets - you’re a hypocrite.

[gkittredge]

Gang,

I understand your points. If a dog is actively taking down your livestock you will want to respond with force. I get it. If I saw a dog with its jaws around the neck of my horse or one of my hounds, you bet I would most likely respond with force. But what I am talking about is a different and perhaps I did not elaborate closely enough.

Most PETA folk and other “tree-huggers” will see a hound traipsing through a pasture or in the woods and automatically think “hey it is chasing livestock, deer or another furry woodland creature. – where is my gun?” In this instance you do not have the right to shoot the dog. All too often I take the hounds through the woods only to come upon some yahoo with a rifle in one hand and a Budweiser in the other. These people scare me. I will also be the first to admit that there has been an occasion where my hounds have chased (NOT KILLED) a deer. It takes some time to pull them off of it. Here in VT and NH you cannot hunt a deer with a hound. For some reason deer are fiercely protected up here. I know you can hunt deer with hounds in other states, but not New England. So if the hunter out there watched my hound accidently chase a deer he/she may think it is their right to dispatch my hound. It is not.

If my dog took down a lamb or a calf I would be hard pressed to argue with someone wanting to protect their livestock. It is still illegal, but I can see the point. I just worry about who has the right to make that decision. What defines chasing livestock? Being in the same pasture is not chasing, but to some it may be. I worry about the lack of explicit detail in the law. I hate to see a hound get shot because someone had a vague interpretation of the law.

I remember a story fifteen years ago that a PETA type group went to a kennel in Canada and killed the entire pack of hounds because they were hunting hounds. I guess the logic was kill the hounds that kill the woodland creatures. Not sure if I understand the logic, but then again I am not a terrorist. I just don’t like a law that could legitimize anyone dispatching a dog because they think it is chasing livestock.

As for waiting for a Game Warden – yea, right. Let me get that passed through Congress first.

Sorry for straying off-topic.

[cholmberg]

I think the law is pretty explicit, for MS it says: “The owner, or the immediate family, employee or agent of the owner, of any poultry or livestock, including cattle, horses, mules, jacks, jennets, sheep, goats and hogs, may kill any dog in the act of chasing or killing any such poultry or livestock, and any such person shall not be liable therefor to the owner of the dog.”

It says -in the act of chasing or killing-. I’ve never seen or heard of anyone getting trigger happy and killing a dog that wasn’t being a nusiance. I wouldn’t kill a dog just for showing up on my property. . although if it’s tearing stuff up or trying to get into the garbage or posturing at me. . .I will do something the dog finds unpleasant but isn’t really harmful to discourage it from coming back. If it persists and I can catch it. . off to the pound it goes. If it threatens my children, it’s chances get a lot slimmer. I don’t deal with owners. All it does is create conflict, if the dog is persistently running at large, the owner knows it and doesn’t care or even thinks it’s their God Given Right to allow their dog to roam loose. I think the three S’s is a good policy. And I’ve not seen a well trained hunting dog run livestock, although I did have a serious problem with a neighbor and their totally untrained ‘coon’ dogs that chased everything on my place (except raccoons) and attacked my dog/niece while they were walking (leashed) on my land. That was a very ugly confrontation, the same people’s bassett had dug into my chicken coop and killed twelve of fifteen pullets before I caught her. I locked her in my garage and told him he’d have to pay for those chickens before he’d get that dog back. He denied his dog did it, said the birds must have ‘run off’ since he couldn’t deny the dog was in the henhouse, she’d dug in, but could not get back out (I guess the chickens used the transporter to ‘run off’ out of the fenced chicken yard). Yeah. I picked up a basket and went out and filled it with little legs and wings and knocked on his door and presented it too him. He wrote me a check and I gave him his dog back. I wouldn’t have killed her, even though I would have been within my rights to do so, but I was plenty angry, and didn’t think I was asking too much for him to pay for what his dog had killed. But it caused very bad neighborly relations.

I think there is FAR more danger of stupid, clueless dog owners who let Fido run loose than there is of trigger happy livestock owners killing hunting dogs that are doing ‘nothing’. As soon as a dog draws a bead on one of my animals and starts loping or running towards them, that is -chasing-. Frankly I worry more about the idiot hunters who shoot first, see what it was later. …killing all manner of creatures including horses, cows, goats, dogs and people. We can’t get through a season without someone on the coast having their horse or cow get shot by hunters who ‘thought it was a deer’. I’ll never forget hearing about the girl in the hot pink wind cheater on a gray horse, in an arena and nearly got killed because the hunter ‘thought it was a deer’ . . yeah, guess that brown saddle could have fooled anyone.

As for Peta and HSUS, they are just too scary for words. The whole thing totally baffles and terrifies me.

[magnolia73]

there would be no need for PETA/HSUS/SPCA.

These organizations could bring to light serious issues. There are some animals treated very cruelly in this world. A hound set loose to kill a bunny then put to sleep with a gun when he can’t hunt is pretty much not the problem. The problem is the conditions in which we raise food animals. I think we need an organization that can rationally raise these issues and lobby for humane treatment of these animals… and make it easier for the people who raise animals in humane and sustainable ways to stay competitive in the market place.

PETA, HSUS, and many rescue organizations are little more than arrogant, self important people who like to tell others how to live. If it were not animals, they’d find some other thing to pontificate about. I do think some of these people really do feel for the animals, but a whole lot more just like to hear themselves prattle on.

I do think that people who lead “rural lifestyles”- hunters, farmers, ranchers would be wise to educate the public on what they do and why. JSwans info on how hunting dogs live as a pack was very educational. I’ve learned a lot about raising food animals from various farmers and ranchers who practice (IMO) humane methods - sometimes its hard to kill the pig, and other times the animals personality is such that you can’t wait to make bacon. As people become removed from these lifestyles they just don’t know and are apt to buy into slickly marketed information. I know Cass and Natalie who I buy eggs from and raise hogs are good people because I talk to them, and can go see their farm. I met a pack of hounds up in Virginia and saw the pride the master took in them and the level of comfort in their surroundings. I think this kind of outreach really will neutralize the effects that PETA and HSUS can have. Because they lie. And they get away with it because the people they lie about are silent.

[yellow-horse]

J Swan, i agree with you about how to care for a pack of hounds, i have a small group, only 3 black and tans, my other dogs are other breeds. the house dogs go to the vet, the hounds get treated by me or by the vet who makes house calls, i would never think of taking one hound out of the pack to go to a vet, if one absolutely had to go in to a vet, i would have to take all of them,luckily there are only 3
the only time these hounds went to a vet was to be neutered when they were pups, otherwise they are treated at home and i would not take one to be euthanized, i would have the vet who makes house calls do it or have my neighbor shoot it
the other thing is if you live in a place long enough you do get to know the other folks around who have dogs, who the hunters are, who has what, most of the problem i’ve had with loose hounds have been the ones abandoned, the ones with collars or id on them are dogs that are wanted back by their owners, the poor hounds that for some reason are abandoned are on their own probably for the 1st time in their lives, it’s very sad, a hound will break your heart sometimes

[JSwan]

I think that often these opinions about hounds are formed because people don’t have enough contact with hunting dogs to understand the pack dynamic.

Let me emphasize that I am no expert on hunting dogs, and only hunt my little Beagle for fun. There are others lurking or posting that know more about hounds and hunting than I ever will. I’ve just had more caffeine - and type really fast. I drink espresso by the mug. zing!

I guess it’s kind of an urban perception - though I don’t mean that as an epithet. That and taking everything an animal rights group says as gospel. I’d encourage people to find out for themselves - go to a trial, or go out with a footpack. Learn about hounds from a different perspective.

Listening to a hunter talk about his dogs is funny - often it’s this big burly he-man type talking about his dogs the way a new mother gushes over her firstborn. If you’re not quick enough - they’ll corner you and show you puppy pictures and tell tall stories. Get a few of them together - and it’s practically a hen party - all clucking over their dawgs. In the meantime - those dawgs are laying beside them or close by in their kennel - snoozing after a long day doing what the Good Lord made them for.

I have experienced true joy when seeing a hound, that I’ve walked during the summer, seen grow and mature, out hunting with the pack. What a wonderful sight - and sound. The color of the sky, the changing leaves, the smell of a fox, and the sound of a hound speaking on a line. Even the horses seem to know - they know the horn, the hounds - they know what’s going to happen and for a moment - just a moment - I’ve felt myself part of Nature. Not an observer, not on the outside looking in or on the fringe - but actually a link in a chain that extends back thousands of years. yeah - sound silly - but there it is.

If you want to see a happy, well adjusted, healthy, fit dog - farm dogs or hunting dogs - in general - fit the bill. No dog Prozac, no skin allergies, no obesity, no self-mutilation, no living in crates all day, no nervous disorders - they only thing bad about 'em is that they usually smell to high heaven (which they love but makes my eyes water)

Just like there are good and bad pet owners, there are good and bad hunting dog owners. I think that groups like PETA and HSUS would serve animals better if they focused on helping animals in true need - those that are starved, beaten, neglected and alone. True altruism.

[Sandy_M]

[QUOTE=Equibrit;2532813]
I might be a bit dim here - but - what is PETA/HSUS’s motivation/justification for killing animals?[/QUOTE]

I haven’t read to the end, so maybe someone has responded to this, but basically, PETA doesn’t believe animals should be kept as pets/slaves (?!?)/servants, etc. Their ideal is a world where all animals are either wild or… um…dead. They don’t care about animal WELFARE, but animal “rights” - and appear to identify that right as the right to not be “owned.” Better dead than “enslaved.”

Turn your horse loose in the wild. If he starves, then he wasn’t meant to survive. Dog shows are demeaning. Horse shows are demeaning. Racing/eventing/dressage are cruel, etc.

[Hoofprince_in_Mud]

[QUOTE=Sandy M;2538506]
Turn your horse loose in the wild. If he starves, then he wasn’t meant to survive. Dog shows are demeaning. Horse shows are demeaning. Racing/eventing/dressage are cruel, etc.[/QUOTE]

The grey thing turned himself loose the other day. The first thing he did was come down to the house, and stand looking in the window at the cartoons the kids were watching. Didn’t seem to want to leave the property and become a “wild” horse.

I guess he’d give the peta and hsus people piles.

[Teach]

In-ter-est-ing. Our grey thing turned HIMself loose yesterday, too. In his case, he screamed at the top of his lungs like he’d seen a spider 'till I came to rescue him & tuck him into his lovely stall, I mean grim, confining, dismal cell.

Sorry, peta/hsus–no takers here!

[xeroxchick]

Domestication - well, it works both ways, doesn’t it? Some theorize that dogs actually attached themselves to US, that they chose to follow and live with hunter/gatherer groups. In “Near a Thousand Tables” the author muses that if some alien looked at the earth from far away, he would think that corn and wheat had dominated and enslaved humans.

[CarrieK]

Not meaning to hijack this thread, but the timing of this article in relation to the side-discussions here is too funny:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/reviewofbooks_article/3517

[JSwan]

That is too funny! My mother is visiting her sister in PA, and reported that my niece was horrified to find out that the hen she’d been playing with was killed by the rooster. Pecked and spurred to death. Chicken murder!!

I asked my mom if they ate the hen and she said no - they had to have a funeral for the hen because my niece had named it.

Never name it if you’re going to eat it. That’s the rule.

[equusus]

“If you love something, set it free.
If it comes back to you, it’s hungrey.”

Inspired by my first horse…

april

[xeroxchick]

[QUOTE=CarrieK;2541652]
Not meaning to hijack this thread, but the timing of this article in relation to the side-discussions here is too funny:
http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/reviewofbooks_article/3517[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the link - interesting review and site.

I, for one, stopped eating “free range” chicken when I discovered that one of their favorite things to eat is puppy poo poo. Made cage cleaning time a snap when walking puppies, though.

[wateryglen]

Wow such smart people!!

Wow there’s been some very wise & learned folks contributing to this interesting thread. I especially liked JSwans description of a foxhounds life as a pack animal. Those of us who’ve seen them separated from their packs know how sad/lost they are.

But I also think there’s a whole lotta folks in southern Va. that are NOT good hound owners/hunters. They don’t hunt legitimately, don’t take care of their hounds, and the dogs are dispensible. They give the good hunters a bad name just like bad horse owners/bad foxhunts ruin the sport for many of us. We can’t generalize but my personal thoughts are that there ARE more of the redneck owned, chained to a tree somewhere, hungry.thin hounds down that way than you might think. Not surprised PETA did it down there. Don’t condone it for sure. Just not surprised. I grew up in Tidewater. First hubby from central Virginny. I have been night hunting also.

[Guin]

PETA are terrorists. I equate them with bioterrorists who break into labs and steal Anthrax, or blow up buses in bazaars. They are using “animal rights” to further their own sick agenda.

[MistyBlue]

GKittredge; it is indeed legal for NH residents to shoot a dog harassing or chasing livestock or humans…and their law also covers humans both riding and walking, this is current dog control laws in NH:

466:28 Killing Dogs Legalized.

Any person may kill a dog that suddenly assaults the person while such person is peaceably walking or riding without the enclosure of its owner or keeper; and any person may kill a dog that is found out of the enclosure or immediate care of its owner or keeper worrying, wounding, or killing sheep, lambs, fowl, or other domestic animals.

Same in Vermont:

– Added 1993, No. 213 (Adj. Sess.), § 2, eff. June 15, 1994; amended 2003, No. 42, § 2, eff. May 27, 2003.
§ 3545. Right to kill domestic pets or wolf-hybrids generally
(a) A person may kill a domestic pet or wolf-hybrid that suddenly assaults him or her or when necessary to discontinue an attack upon the person or another person provided that the attack or assault does not occur while the domestic pet or wolf-hybrid is restrained, within an enclosure containing the domestic pet or wolf-hybrid, or on the premises of the owner.
(b) A domestic pet or wolf-hybrid found wounding, killing or worrying another domestic pet or wolf-hybrid, a domestic animal or fowl may be killed when the attendant circumstances are such that the killing is reasonably necessary to prevent injury to the animal or fowl which is the subject of the attack. (Amended 1977, No. 215 (Adj. Sess.), § 1, eff. April 12, 1978; 1979, No. 92 (Adj. Sess.), § 1, eff. Feb. 28, 1980; 1993, No. 213 (Adj. Sess.), § 3, eff. June 15, 1994.)

Unfortunately VT allows wolf hybrids still…something I’d like to see changed soon.

As for PETA…they’re nucking futs. The whole kit and caboodle of them. I’d like to see how many of them (officers in the organization) are from backgrounds other than suburban or urban and have actually dealt with or grown up with domesticated animals other than apartment pets.
I’ve seen them in action a handful of times over my lifetime…I have yet to see, meet or even hear/read about a single sane one that has a clue about real life.
Seriously…look at the only celebrities they’re able to get to promote them:
Pamela Anderson, the late Anna Nicole Smith, Pharrel Williams, etc.
Not exactly the roster for Mensa.
Hell, not even a roster for the “I Can Tie My Own Shoes” organization. :rolleyes:

[Bluey]

—“As for PETA…they’re nucking futs. The whole kit and caboodle of them. I’d like to see how many of them (officers in the organization) are from backgrounds other than suburban or urban and have actually dealt with or grown up with domesticated animals other than apartment pets.
I’ve seen them in action a handful of times over my lifetime…I have yet to see, meet or even hear/read about a single sane one that has a clue about real life.
Seriously…look at the only celebrities they’re able to get to promote them:
Pamela Anderson, the late Anna Nicole Smith, Pharrel Williams, etc.
Not exactly the roster for Mensa.
Hell, not even a roster for the “I Can Tie My Own Shoes” organization.”—

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

It would be funny, if it was not so sad.

I agree, except for one little detail, that Mensa’s membership standards are not about how “normal” people are. Plenty of nuts there too.:yes:

I think that picking a loose dog up and taking it’s collar off and discarding it should be easily prosecutable as stealing.