Most of the ‘preservationist’ horses I’ve seen have not been suited to any athletic endeavor. Of course, I’m of the school that sees no point in breeding for paper or just to keep bloodlines ‘alive’. Not all preservationist horses mind you - but the bulk of them, sadly :no: . Davenports as mentioned being generally a good exception to that, IMHO.
Best to look at the individuals rather than specific lines (there are some great sporthorses from all different bloodlines, from Polish to Russian, to American to Egyptian, to German and so forth). I think it will take some time to prove which lines are best for which sporthorse disciplines.
Again, one example of your already admittedly lesser experience. I have been in the breed for going on 10 years now, and have visited many major farms and worked at 2 farms of almost exclusively arabians. I’ve seen a few cribbers (maybe 4 or 5 total?) and 2 or so stall walkers (one of which as I already mentioned is on stall rest from an injury). I’ve also boarded at 3 all-breed barns and there were just as many saddlebreds, hunters, and jumpers and so forth that had bad habits that are like the ones you mentioned. I think it’s terribly ignorant of you to suggest that this is a breed related issue - quite laughable, to be perfectly frank. I have a feeling I know who your aunt and her daughter are - too bad they’re your introduction to the arabian world (if they are who I think they are) :no: Furthermore, it’s again a management issue - i.e. having to do with the PEOPLE, not the breed - I too find it interesting that these were all owned by the same farms.
The people I know with “barnfuls of F1s” are doing just fine and seem to be selling them with no problem. Why should they stop breeding them? There’s obviously a market. What right do you have to say they shouldn’t breed them? You don’t. Period.
“Rare” good arab? Wow - what a stupid generality. It’s quite sad :no: :sadsmile:
I agree with you, and with the foals you’ve posted so far, I can imagine wanting to continue doing the cross, as it’s obviously working out very well for you.
I’d be glad to take that horrible filly off the owner’s hands so they can be rid of such a poor example of her breed. :winkgrin:
I’m more than familiar with Soldat His other partbred and purebred offspring are quite wonderful. It’s a shame he passed away a year or two ago.
I still don’t agree in regards to Friesian crossbreeding. If we were talking mares, then yes - a mare can only produce one foal a year (unless we’re talking embryo transfer, which is a different thing). A stallion could theoretically produce hundreds - irregardless of fertility, sperm doesn’t care if the egg is from a Friesian mare or Arabian mare. I don’t think half arab breeders are really taking away from Friesians producing more Friesians (especially since the cross is not THAT common). I’m somewhat doubtful that the Friesian breed will die out because maybe 5 or 10 arabian breeders are breeding to a Friesian stallion or two.
I agree - just to add to that - the biggest classes at our Class A arabian shows in my area are the walk trot classes (for riders 10 and under - most getting 10-20 entries), and the amateur western and hunter classes. I guess, Tri, you better tell the parents of those kids and those 40+ ladies in the western and hunter classes that they have ‘rare’ good arabs. Chances are, they will laugh at you and tell you there are 30 or 40 more just like them at home.
At Region 7 this year (I wasn’t able to attend - but got the usual report from my trainer), there were apparently about 30 horses in the western pleasure walk trot class. They scheduled the class at night, and outdoors. Every single horse was perfectly behaved in that class - even with the mass number of horses in there, the funny shadows surely caused by the lights, and the tendency of walk-trotters to always group together. I wish I had a video of it to show anyone who says a word about “Crazy arabs” - because it would easily be debunked.
This is a load of crapola. The Sporthorse Nationals were created so that they COULD have their own focus. The Sporthorse people wanted it (many of them did - many didn’t - lots of those who didn’t attended in its first year or two and actually decided they liked it). AHA did the same thing for the Youth Nationals - they moved all kids classes to their own show so they could be the focus. And whether you like it or not, the Main Ring folks were there first AND they supported their classes. How many horses do you think show up for the hunter and jumper classes? Or upper level dressage? I think there were 2 or 3 in the PSG last year. Maybe a few more hunters or jumpers. One of the western pleasure classes this year at Youth Nationals had something like 78 entries. Furthermore - would you rather the sporthorse people had their own show, where they had great stabling, arena footing to their standards, and them being the focus - or would you rather they be pushed to the background, showing late into the night, and out in the farthest arenas from the rest of the show? No matter what AHA does - there will be people who will be thrilled with the decision and people who will hate the decision. That cannot be helped. The same thing happened years ago with Youth Nationals. Guess what? It’s still here and gets bigger and better every year. Sporthorse Nationals is following its lead. With or without you, Dewers1100. The sporthorse people are more than welcome to pay the hundreds or thousands of dollars to be in the glossies every month (because surely you realize that those aren’t free? or that they ONLY charge the Sporthorse people for ads?? :lol: ). Why should AHA pay more attention to the sporthorse people than main ring? There should be an equal balance - people who pleasure ride, youth, those who are successful in the open world, people who show halter/pleasure classes, and people who show sporthorse. No one sector deserves more from AHA than any other.
Re: There are plenty of great PB and HA Sport Horses around who possess great athletic ability but nobody ever sees them unless the owners spring for mega bucks in the magazines.
I thought sporthorse was so much less subjective than main ring classes? Why do they need to be in the glossies then?
Besides that, I think it’s very sad that you (and plenty of other people, as well - from both segments of the breed) - feel the need to separate the show folks. We all are a fan of the same breed, and there’s no need to be at odds with each other.
Because Scottsdale is a Class A show. Not Nationals. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars (if not millions) from corporate sponsors, as well as more room (and it just being better suited) at the Westworld facility than either Albuquerque or Louisville.
I’ve seen plenty of poor legged, bad moving, bug-eyed sporthorses - many were scored accordingly. Lots were not. Poor legs and bad movers are not exclusive to halter, unfortunately. That said, I’ve seen some absolutely lovely sporthorses that were halter winners as well (Concensus, OKW Entrigue, Bremervale Andronicus, just to name a few - and I would be honored to breed to any one of them).
Also, another big correction - they are in no way outnumbering the halter classes in my area. It may be different in yours but there are a lot more (or sometimes equal to) halter horses that show up than Sporthorse In Hand horses. As with anything I’m sure it depends on your location.
Mikado was a great horse - you were fortunate to have one of his kids. He was a National Champion in park, went on to do some dressage and sired some really good (if underlooked) horses. He was also a full brother to the great Bay el Bey (National Champion Stallion).
You also touched on another reason why some of us are so in love with the breed - they just keep on tickin’ - and lots of them are in work, give lessons, and so on until the day they die (my mare’s sire was one of these - he completed the Tevis twice, competed in virtually every discipline offered by AHA - costume, hunter pleasure, western pleasure, horsemanship, working hunters, trail, reining - and he was shown by a junior rider for much of his career until he was 29! He died a couple of years ago at age 35.)
Are you so ignorant that you don’t realize that people have to PAY for those covers??? The Times or World will be thrilled to have a sporthorse gracing the cover of their magazine as soon as someone pays to have it there! Just because you have a sporthorse doesn’t mean you get to have a cover on a magazine and everyone else has to pay for it (oh but YOU get preferential treatment because you have a sporthorse) :rolleyes:
Just like in any breed, we have tiny horses, and we have really big ones (with most somewhere in the middle). Why bother crossing? Because you might want a different quality that another breed has. It’s not all about height, after all. :yes:
Sorry that this post is so long but I felt like I needed to address a lot of misinformation on here…
Looking at WA, the TB influence is readily apparent. Looking at his dam, I see clear evidence of her Arab heritage. Even 3 generations removed, she looks like an F1 or even <gasp> a purebred. WA was originally brought up in the context of claims that Arabian blood wasn’t found in elite Olympic level athletes. WA was offered as one counter-example. (Robert Dover’s horse and Tamarillo are better examples of more obvious and “closer” Arabian influence.)
My purpose is not to overstate the Arab influence in WA or any other individual horse, I’m just sayin’ that these horses are proof that having some Arabian lineage in a sport horse pedigree (even close-up) ain’t disgraceful and may have contributed some desireable characteristics to the top level competition mount.
I think sometimes people can be too quick to discount any Arab influence because of the stereotypes derived from the “living works of art” horses. For hundreds of years, breeders have cross-bred Arabians with a variety of bloodlines to produce athletic horses. There were valid reasons to do so with suitable stock then and there are valid reasons do so in contemporary programs (again with suitable stock). Several WB registries appear to support this view.
As someone said earlier, a good horse is a good horse.
Did I say a sport horse should get a FREE cover? Did I say the Sport Horse should have preferential treatment? Please don’t reduce this thread to name calling, surely you are capable of making your point without calling someone ignorant :winkgrin:
I’ve seen plenty of poor legged, bad moving, bug-eyed sporthorses - many were scored accordingly. Lots were not. Poor legs and bad movers are not exclusive to halter, unfortunately.
Uh ho, there’s the ‘B’ word again. Tri will be thrilled.:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Arabian horses are classified as hot bloods as are TB’s, they’re purpose for being has never ever been to pull a cart or plow.
Warmbloods, now these are horses whose ancestors were dams who were cart pulling, plow pulling course draft animals, the cart pulling, plow pulling beasts were bred to the hot blooded arabians and TB stallions resulting in an animal called a warmblood.
What the continental europeans have been trying to do in the past century is to try and breed all the plow and draft out of their horses, but like they say, hard to hide what’s in the woodpile.
Breeding a warmblood mare to an arabian or TB stallion is always an upgrade, has always been an upgrade, that’s why the Europeans have done so often.
The arabian TB cross, now that’s the best one, just breeding excellence to excellence, the best to the best.
I always get the creeps at dressage shows watching these huge drafty warmbloods piaffe and passage, they hit the ground so hard they make the building shake, it’s like watching a sumo wrestler out there on a Saturday Night Live ballerina skit. They need some more arabian blood for the sake of the art.
Jeff
Getting back to the actual topic, I think there are couple ways to look at this question.
In terms of the actual horses, I think among their other qualities, arabs bring bone density and soundness, super feet, intelligence, trainability, endurance, hardiness, sensitivity and elan. All things from which many warmbloods could benefit.
In terms of showing, I would think the best of the half-arabs could be competitive both in the arabian sporthorse division and hold their own in open competition. Are you likely to get an olympic prospect? No. But that’s true no matter what you breed. Even among the breeders of top warmbloods, they produce an awful lot of total duds for the rare superstar. There simply are no guarantees. When I was looking, I saw several horrendous, totally un-athletic daughters of Donnerhall out of elite Matcho/Pik Bube mares. That was supposed to be the golden cross of the time, but it didn’t seem to work very often.
In terms of the market, I wouldn’t be surprised to see a trend away from ‘supersize’ horses in the future. For one thing, space is increasingly at a premium. For another, economic “growth” (such as it is) is benefitting fewer and fewer individuals. Plus I think the AA market was probably heavily fueled by baby-boomers, who are now hitting retirement age. As more of them start bring their horses home, they’ll be looking for an easier horse to have in the backyard. I for one am finding that now that I’m out of the big barns, any “keep up with the jones” tendency has been replaced by the thought that I’m the one who will have to repair the barn if the horse accidentally takes out the 300 pound sliding door. My little arab eats less than half the hay (and presumably produces half the manure) as my friend’s 17 hand warmblood. He does such good pasture care that I need to get a 2nd horse so I won’t have to mow so much.
So personally, I think it’s potentially a good idea. Your mileage may vary.
This thread is coming to an end and with that, I would like to wish everyone GOOD LUCK for the Canadian Nationals and the Sport Horse Nationals, wish I could be there but with the nationals split, I don’t get to see these classes anyone.
And, last but not least, I’M NOT A SPORT HORSE OWNER, :winkgrin: :winkgrin: :winkgrin: I’ve been main ring for eons. (not Halter) I totally admire those who show in sport horse and maybe someday, I will give it a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ~Freedom~ View Post
Coming to this thread late.
So what would you breed a arab-warmblood cross to? Take this question as both sides- first- as a stallion with this cross then a mare with this cross.
Can SOMEONE take a few seconds and give me a reply. Thanks
1/2 Arab mare: to a WB stallion so you can get WB papers… registered WB is more marketable than 1/2 Arab papers.
1/2 Arab stallion: to Arab mares. Unless the stallion is WB inspected the foal has to have an Arab parent for 1/2 Arab papers and foals o/o a WB mare can basically get no papers.
I agree with the above comment. As the Germans learned, the best results come from putting 1/2 Arabian mares to warmblood stallions. This is what I did with my own Han-Arab mare - bred her to warmblood stallions and registered the foals as Oldenburgs.
If you are focused on the Arabian / Half-Arabian industry, you might want to go back to an Arabian stallion, but otherwise I would say to put the mare to a WB stallion.
And I would also agree to put a 1/2 Arabian stallion to Arabian mares so the foals can be registered. Very few Arabian stallions get approved by the WB registries these days, so the chances of having one in the position to sire registered WB foals is pretty slim.
Counter clockwise from the top:
Our stallion, Karino’s Fire
'06 Trakehner filly
'05 AWS Filly
'06 AWS colt o/o Rhineland mare
'06 AWS Filly
'05 Trakehner filly
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/11473555/181204503.jpg
Above link is to a collage of my half-Arab stallion & his progeny from his 2005-2006 foals. I am very happy with his offspring & the owners are beyond thrilled with their foals. I see no problem bringing in the Arabian blood through a half Arabian stallion. Many times in the history of successful Sport horses, the blood was brought in on the top, even if the stallion brining on the blood got it from his dam’s line. I see no problem with the results we are getting.
Christina Hyke
This is a little bit of a philosophical tangent, but I think it’s interesting to look at the different opinions on incorporating “blood” into the sport horse pedigree. For instance, the Irish have always insisted “blood on top” (at least historically). It seems the WB registries are now prefering blood to come through the distaff side of the pedigree. I’m assuming that this has occured in part because a “good” blood horse is so hard to find and get breeders to use - that it’s less risky to incorporate via the dams?
[QUOTE=mairzeadoats;1829720]
Getting back to the actual topic, I think there are couple ways to look at this question.
In terms of the actual horses, I think among their other qualities, arabs bring bone density and soundness, super feet, intelligence, trainability, endurance, hardiness, sensitivity and elan. All things from which many warmbloods could benefit.
.[/QUOTE]
All excellent reasons for Arabian blood in sporthorses. I went looking for a warmblood/Arab cross and after a long search found my guy. My only complaint is that the 15.3h three year old grew to almost 17h.
His other partbred and purebred offspring are quite wonderful. It’s a shame he passed away a year or two ago.
