You mean they haven’t been appropriately indoctinated into our apparently acceptable prejudices, so their judging is less credible?
[QUOTE=tri]
Actually my aunt is an arabian judge and goes all over the world. Her daughter (my cousin) is also an arabian judge. Their farm is 20 minutes from my farm and they have about 30 or so arabs - breeding, showing, & training. They constantly try to get me to change over to arabs.
I went with them on one of those farm tours. You know, one of those events they have where you go from arab farm to arab farm and they have demonstrations, show off their stallions, sale horses, etc. The farms were spectacular. The horses had many show wins, championships, etc. The stallions were groomed to gleaming perfection with every muscle and vein popping. Every horse, almost without exception, in the lush, beautifully fences pastures wore cribbing straps. The ones in the barns as we walked through, weaved, stall walked or banged. Thanks but no thanks.
QUOTE]
Surely you recognize the difference between man-made behaviors and heritable behaviors?
There are about 35 arabians or half arabians at my barn (and one Saddlebred). I think one stall walks - and he only does that because he blew out a suspensory a couple of weeks ago (as well as came up with a bonechip) and is on stall rest (he didn’t stall walk before that).
Sounds like management issues to me in your case, not anything to do with a breed. I used to board at a large barn (100+ horses) with lots of different breeds, but a lot of morgans and saddlebreds as well as a barn of hunters and a couple jumpers - several were weavers. I can think of 5 or 10 that cribbed. I guess that means that all morgans, saddlebreds, and hunter/jumpers have bad habits like that because of their breed. :lol: :rolleyes: :dead:
If the hip angle is correct, then it does not matter how flat or sloped (or somewhere in the middle) the croup is. Now - there’s the problem - there are quite a few people who breed for a flat croup, without paying attention to that hip angle - because they want the look of the flat croup (anything else is secondary - good or bad). Which means that the horse not only has a flat croup but a poorly built hip, which translates into a horse with a lack of athletic ability and the ability to collect.
That’s one of those things that my guy’s breeder can see, and I just can’t. I can’t see past the flat croup (which he doesn’t have) to the hip. I wish someone could point out for me the differences. I want to learn to be able to see that. My Sempatico colt had a somewhat flat croup, and while it was commented on, it did not lower his scores, becuase he still moved well and had good sit. I remember a couple of FEI horses I’ve known have had it, and certainly they still moved well and were performing and showing FEI. But I just don’t have an eye for it and need to learn.
The tail… wry tail is bad–though when a horse is through it goes away–in any breed. The “up” tail thing is indicative of a tight back, which I think is why it’s considered a no-no. Honestly, I didn’t breed to State of the Art in his very first year in VT because in the video he looked soooo tight backed with that “arab” tail thing going. Shame on me–I missed out on a GREAT opportunity back then… but it’s what I saw at the time. How much of it was truly tight back and how much was the flipped tail? I dunno, I returned the video 
Would love to look at it with hindsight.
As far as Inspections, one of the reasons I like RPSI is because it’s the same judge/inspector whether you are in Germany, Italy, Brazil or the US. MY horse is being judged against the same standard. (and besides, Otto’s a complete softie for a Great mare, as it SHOULD be!)
Truly, I’m the first one to tell you I dislike Arabs. Lordy the BAD examples I saw when I first moved up here would swear you off ALL horses, not to mention crazy, little, parrotmouthed, inbred… well, you get the picture. If you’d ever told me I’d have a barnful… I’d have bet the farm against it. But they work for me. The crosses work better than the PB’s. They let me do some of the thinking.
Just rambling thoughts at 01:30… :winkgrin: 
This has a pretty good explanation:
http://www.americantrakehner.com/SportHorse%20Conformation/SHCpart1.htm
Print out all 4 parts and the illustrations. I would think that all breeders would want to understand this stuff.
Our Arab mare was offered for sale because she had “this awful, big, round butt”. There are still some breeders, out in the boonies, keeping the old style alive. A tip of the hat to them.
That’s a really good article, Tom. Thanks.
Oh, and BTW, I LOFF Arabians of the old sporthorse type.
I guess I can’t take with any credibility someone (especiallly a European breeder) who discounds with such vehemence the Trakehner, arabian, etc…
It has no basis in fact…so much of the German Warmblood registries are chock full of Trakehners, jumpers, dressage, etc…it just sounds like sour grapes to me.
And I don’t understand who you do with all those F1 crosses if those in the know say they are ‘unsuitable’ , in order to ‘wait’ for the F3 and F4’s??? you must have to bred 'em, right? stallions AND mares…one just cannot ‘throw in an F4’ out of nothing…
Tom, we too have had ‘arabian trainers’ criticize our arabians because they had ‘round big butts’, or not ultra flat toplines… they are out there, but being quiet and responsible and perfoming alongside alot of different breeds.
and by the way, at the last USDF breed show, I saw a reasonble share of weany butted (lite is substance, steep croup and hip angles a la draft, w/o alot of muscle) warmbloods and couldn’t understand it…They were placed well too…so I think all breeds have their faults that need avoided no matter what the ‘pedigree’…
Our ‘little’ arabian stallion has always scored well in open shows dominated by WB’s…we never expected him to ‘beat them’, as he is just 14.3…but 75% of the judges have liked him well enough for him to even be as high as 4th in a large class, with some scores as high as 75% plus…and oddly enough, the Euro judges liked him better than most of the Americans…
And our half arab half HACKNEY pony mare nearly won an open mare (not pony) breeding class at a big USDF breed show…she was reserve and just a smidge of a point off winning…that’s the kind of open mindedness we breeders appreciate…
Ramzes was an Anglo/SHAGYA
Breeding Profile
Ramzes is an Anglo/ SHAGYA stallion famous for being the sire line of the dam of many international competitors - Libero H, Lugana II, Openette la Silla, S Ruch Or, amongst others. He has sired 13 graded sons and 60 graded mares. He is also the grand sire of the renowned Ramiro Z and Secundus keur who is the sire of numerous outstanding British showjumpers.
Ramzes is said to be one of the top refiners of the German breed.
Ramiro Z is one of the most influential sires in modern competition horse breeding. He has sons graded into stud books all over the world, siring over 50 graded showjumping stallions in Germany alone. Ramiro Z has a high BCM ranking which is reflected by the success of his daughter Ratina Z, winner of the team Gold and individual Silver at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, winner of the World Cup in 1993, the team Gold at the World Championships in 1994 and the team Gold at the Atlanta Olympics in 1996. Ramiro Z has 47 progeny registered in the 1999-2000 edition of the WBFSH International Breeding Guide as having competed at international level at showjumping. He also has five in top level dressage!
There is a difference in the Shagya and the purebred Arabian and I much desire that educated breeders realize and understand the differences. If one wanted to add a bit of refinement, riding ability, better mind, and more soundness, consider breeding to a SHAGYA stallion.
In the case of RAMZES–his dam is SHAGYA and many of these traits were given to him from his dam and when combined with an exceptional TB stallion, it proved the ideal cross!
For 200 years the Shagya, its own breed, has been subject to a strict selection process comparable to the breed inspection held now that did not even begin until after WWII. The Hungarians were doing this a century before!
They took the best of the purebred Arabian and went from there, so one doesn’t need to worry about F-1 crosses–your saleable and end product is right there!
The Holsteiner Verband recently added a purebred Shagya stallion to it’s stud book, where you will find several other PB Shagya and countless Shagya mares, many of them sought after, as they are outstanding broodmares! These mares are welcome by all the WB registries.
The Anglo/Shagya is a wonderful sport horse and truly rare. A new registry has been established to record this exceptional cross. The American Shagya Arabian Verband Inc. decided that that RAMZES was not a fluke, his breeding profile is real and even though it is a rare combination, it is one based on a firm foundation.
There is a purebred Shagya stallion now standing on the east coast-- in Virginia. He throws size, 16 to 17 h.h. and huge bone and mellow temperament. Those of you with Thoroughbred mares, give it consideration as you will, I believe, be very happy with your foals.
one thing that hasn’t been touch on but lightly in this discussion, is other ‘why’ for the cross, the MINDSET…
We do NOT think arabians are for everyone. As OP said , they are rather clever, anticipatory (to a fault) and are usually smarter than the rider.
They do not tolerate repitition well, (which is part , I think, of the reason some think they may not be capable of upper level work). Alot of good arabs, learn so quickly, that when 'they ’ think they have, say, learned the piaffe, they think, ok let’s go on…and it’s hard to get them to concentrate on PERFECTING the move, when they think just learning it is fine ok dandy…
It can be difficult if you are not creative enough, to get them to concentrate on perfecting a move, when all they want to do it learn something NEW.
so boring an arab is not a good thing, and takes some finesse to get around…Not all of us are Greta Wriglys, or Hilda Gurneys or the like…
We like the cross, because it slows this tendency down a bit, USUALLY…they are still bright, alert, inquisitive, but a little slower to react and willing to work longer on the same thing…At least, that is the goal…
Again, it’s another reason why we think the cross so viable and popular with most amateurs…
Physically, most of the purebreds we have owned/bred are fully physically capable of jumping 5’ or better, and doing upper level movements…it just has to often be their idea, and sometimes that doesn’t work well for the owner/rider…
Allanglos- Thanks for the word about Kharben Khopy. His ad has him listed as 16h. Too bad, I like the Khemo line a lot.
I agree with the comment that high arabian tail set is not a knew thing. It is actually a very old thing- it’s a physical adaptation to their natural environment. The higher tail set and the tail over the back when they are excited allows them to cool more quickly in a hotter climate. It takes the hair of the tail away from the body and allows the air to circulate cooling them more quickly in times of extreme heat or “flight.”
As for the flat croup… Has anybody looked at a Dutch wb lately? Take a picture of a dwb that has nothing around it to use for scale (size reference), put your thumb on the dwb’s head, and then compare it to a picture of an arab NOT standing in a halter pose… The dwb I bred my arab mare to the 1st time has a flatter croup than she does. I picked that cross because the shapes of their bodies are so similar, and yes the German inspector liked him very much.
As for the why I did the cross itself… I confess I’m a backyard breeder. I breed for fun. Yes, I do eventually try to sell some of them, but I always breed as if I am planning on keeping the resulting foal. I love arabs, and I didn’t want to get out of the breed. I did however want something with more size and a little more substance. MY husband is 6’ and unfortunately after 2 serious knee surgeries I admit to packing on the pounds. So far I’m really pleased with my older cross. He’s 2 now, and I showed him in hand this year at both arab and usdf events and both venues liked him.
F1 Stallion:
[B]I think the 1/2 Arabian has a valuable place in the Warmblood breeding world.
Leave it to us who love owning half Arabians to bring that influence to you through our mares & stallions. We have one half Arabian, he is a Trakehner stallion out of a PSB Arabian mare. While I am excited to see his grand babies, take a look one of his '06 warmblood babies.
The colt pictured here is 1/4 Arabian,
here is a '06 colt by our stallion & out of a Rhineland mare:
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/176975134.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/166163429.jpg[/B]
“There are still some breeders, out in the boonies, keeping the old style alive.”
I would think a good place to look might be among the “preservationists,” who are dedicated (or at least used to be back when I researched it a bit 10 years ago) to keeping the original type. If I were looking, I’d search for the “blue star,” “blue list,” “al khamsa,” “crabbet,” “CMK” and especially the “Davenport” (which I remember as being somewhat taller and particularly athletic types).
Also the Polish bloodlines tend to be bigger, quieter and athletic.
I remember seeing a pure Polish 25 or so years ago. He was 15.3, built like a tank, had a nice round butt with well-sloped him. Oh, and he was in a paddock with a 4 year old child sitting under his belly playing with plastic trucks. His owner (child’s mother) said she used him as a baby sitter!
WHERE ARE THEY?!
The reason Arabs aren’t popular is because they’ve been bred down. When I was young I rode an amazing Arab. 15.2 and solid. Large, dense bones. Great engine. That mare packed my happy a$$ over 3-4 foot jumps, galloped cross-country and never took a bad step. She didn’t get the best care, either. I was the most backyard of riders. In the summer I slapped a double bridle on her and we did park classes and won. Its embarrassing to think back to how she was treated…:redface:
But my point is that I still hold her as the ideal arabian. Beautiful, smart, SOLID, not too tall (I know, a sore point!), excellent gaits, huge hiney… and very, very, very sound. Really, how many of these are there? They may be making a resurgence, I hope, with the sporthorse classes, but even when people say “Polish is better” - how many polish arabians look like long-necked sausages teetering around on toothpick legs?
When you say “working lines” - it means there is a horse that can actually move its body. The fact is that many working lines = WESTERN. There are some that can really move, sure, but to a sporthorse crowd western =/= suspension. Most of us don’t look for a cowhorse to do dressage. It is just a fact.
I say all of this as someone who truly loves the breed. The type of breeding and marketing of Arabians is nothing short of tragic. When I get my next horse, it will probably be a WB-Arab. But I look around at most Arabians in my neck of the woods, and you couldn’t pay me to breed them. :no:
I appreciate and respect those of you who are breeding and marketing for sporthorses, but it is a very uphill climb.
I cannot imagine any true horseman discounting a horse that looks like these examples (and some others posted) simply because they had arabian blood…these look like outstanding individuals. As good as any ‘non arabian’ warmblood foals.
I know the argument,that one must look at the ‘pedigree’ . It’s what makes one ‘assured’ their prospect will ‘jump’ or ‘dressage’ or ‘event’…
Would it not be more prudent to look at the individual and their conformational qualities that may predispose this individual to excell at the chosen activity?
hypothetically stand up two five year olds of equal conformational type…truly nearly indistinquishable from one another , both of superb quality and built for say, dressage…
Turn them out to judge movement, both moved ideally for the discipline…
then ask for the decision…giving of course, the information that one is half arabian, the other a non arab warmblood…
I am hearing from a few that despite their equality, they would choose the non arabian …just because…(???) why?
I would have more respect from a doubter who said “gee haven’t worked with one, and they don’t seem to be the type I might like, but if someone had one I would give it a try” or something similar …
Rather than “I would never consider an arab or arab cross for dressage/jumping/hunter” 'My trainer/the BNT I know, etc. won’t even look at an arab or arab cross for…"
That’s no different than a child who won’t taste broccoli because ‘someone’ told them it tasted bad…
It’s absurd and doesn’t sound very professional to many…(about ANY breed, really )
Have spoken over the years with quite few professional trainers who told us they certainly ate their words when they finally tried an arabian or arab cross. Seriously tried one…suited for the task at hand…Some never went back to non arabs, others were very willing to always give them a chance, as they do any other horse.
As has been noted here with many good examples, it seems there are quite few true horsemen that give the individual a chance…arabian, part arabian or part Shetland pony (Karen O’Conner’s new horse, the 14.2 part arab part Shetland, part TB eventer) …
they just want a great horse to ride, not a pedigree on the wall to stare at.
WHERE ARE THEY??
At our farm…and I suspect at a quite a few more farms that just don’t make a big stink about it…
You are right, the ‘arabian’ promoted today with all the glitz and glamour, no butts, snaky necks, bad legs…is not 'our arabian…and our arabian is still popular…and becoming more and more so in equine sports, rather than as a key fob or piece of ‘living’ art…
But crossing them DOES improve the market share, for all the reasons stated repeatedly…I think it’s getting better every year, also, as more and more are being ‘brought’ out…owned up to, and more have the courage to go up against the ‘traditional’ sport breeds…Kudos to all of them…
"I guess that means that all morgans, saddlebreds, and hunter/jumpers have bad habits like that because of their breed. "
No, a couple out of 35 in your example doesn’t. 49 out of 50 in my example makes me run away. 25 out of 32 in my aunt’s barn confirms it and my own experiences with arabs does little to make me think differently. And yes, it is a managment problem - an ARAB MANAGEMENT problem. As well as an ARAB BREEDING problem. As well as an ARAB MARKET problem. So what you are saying is that there are these RARE arabs that aren’t like that and that hopefully the arab market will take notice and those RARE arabs will become more popular and people will stop predominately breeding those other types (stall walkers, weavers, cribbers, badly conformed, etc.).
So when and if you can find the RARE good arab or the RARE shagya (which blood I do like, btw), add it sparingly - once every 6 generations. Which leads us to the next thing; how to get to the F3,F4. Again, to have this RARE blood added ONCE every 6 generations, we don’t need barnfuls of F1s. Just one here and there. So the average breeder doesn’t need to be breeding F1s every year, imho.
FBW Kennedy. I have yet to find any forthcoming information about his dam, but she was sired by an Arabian, and is listed (albiet only on allbreed) as an Arabian herself. Of course, this could be erroneous or a “translation” problem – I understand that in some countries, if you mean purebred Arabian, you need to specify that it is purebred, otherwise one just assumes Arab-bred. But it seems entirely possible that Kennedy is gasp half-Arabian.
Anyone have more information on the remainder of her pedigree?
Also, do not forget Bachus, who was sired by the grey Shagya stallion Bajar. Bajar was the result of a brother-sister mating, with contributions from purebreds quite close-up. Suakim and Gazelle, the sire and dam, were both out of Gama, a Shagya Arab by purebred Landsknecht, out of purebred Ipomea. Bachus was born in 1986, stood over 16.2hh (169cm), and from the video ( http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov705.m1v - Eylers), looks like a good time. 
He stood for Holstein, siring Baldini I ( http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov719.m1v) and Baldini II, Briscar ( http://www.horse-flirt.de/video/mov714.m1v and http://213.239.208.29/cms/index.php?client=1&lang=1&idcat=32&idart=237&pageno= - described as a performance stallion who was internationally successful, and after an injury was used by a junior rider to jump Class S courses. Particulars are listed, but he is described as having an outstanding worth ethic, great speed and rideability). I think they look like fun His quirky, enthusiastic jumping style seems from even limited exposure to be very heritable!
I think that as the demand for a larger horse has increased, purebred Arabians are less useful for the breeding of Warmbloods, though they may be compensating by finding great use in the breeding of riding/sport ponies. Some have suggested that as the money for purebred Arabians has not been in sporthorse breeding for a long while. Of course, you cannot expect breeders to breed what doesn’t sell, so the average Arabian has slid toward…something else. There are plenty of breeders making good sporty Arabians.
Perhaps the new interest in Arabian sporthorses and Arabian racehorses will make suitable Arabians more readily available.
Edit: My friend stayed with me this weekend. She has a Hackney. I was very disturbed when she told me that her trainer lets off sparklers during her lessons. I was more disturbed still that she was at a loss to understand why he might “randomly” rear in his stall. Now, there seems to be a right way and a wrong way to go about this kind of thing. Stallion handlers use a special halter/bridle/routine whenever he is going to serve, so he knows when certain behavior is expected. He has predictability in his life, and is not anxious over it. By the same token, my friend and her trainer could find a way to distinguish between when he is expected to be animated and when he is supposed to be quiet. THIS ISN’T ABOUT SADDLESEAT/SPARKLERS, by the way.
But, tri, does it not stand to reason that some people might do an excellent job of teaching their Arabian halter horses and saddleseat horses to “do their thing” at a certain time? And that these horses might enjoy the predictability of this kind of training? All the problems you listed seem to be related to anxiety. The horses probably don’t have a routine, they don’t know when they’re supposed to do what, or when they might be scared out of their wits.
I do agree that it’s probable that the 2nd tier show horses and their “folks” are perpetuated. But by laziness. It takes little skill to teach a horse to spaz out. Very little. And what if people breed on the ones that are most likely to spaz? Then, yes, you’d have this nasty cycle where poor trainers with little actual skill or compassion would think that horses prone to anxiety are their ticket to the top, and the judges don’t know or don’t care about the difference, and neither do the spectators. I wouldn’t, though, assume that I could make generalizations from such a limited pool (yes, limited), even if I lived in California. Limited in that these horses were in 2 scenarios. I’m not saying you’re wrong or that other stuff you’ve said is invalid. I just think maybe you should step back and go “Oh, wait, all those ones were owned by this person, trained by these methods for this job.” And that’s not really a great sample. From a purely statistical standpoint, anyways.
I’ve met many different Arabians with different pedigrees trained by different people for different things. None of them were cribbers. None of them were spooky. Two of them did respond to stimuli by becoming animated. They didn’t do anything…it was more that they were just very expressive. Their excitement was physically visible in the way they carried themselves. The schoolie (a Dutch WB, allegedly ::eyeroll:: ) I rode this weekend was not like that. He gets very excited and very into his job, but you don’t see it in his face, or his ears, or mouth, or tail, or carriage. He just ploughs along faster and faster. But in his head I think he’s going “WHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!” just like some of the Arabians I’ve ridden. Before I’m accused of anthropomorphizing, take a wild guess at my last name. hehe!
IDK tri, maybe I restated exactly what you meant and I just didn’t get it when you wrote it.
All videos are from the horse-gate.com database.
Erm, well, okay, I’ve been to several farms that breed Straight Egyptians that had maybe 30 or so, per farm. Didn’t notice any weavers there. Most were very friendly, sticking their heads out, and wanting to “visit” anyone passing by. I swear, most would slink into your lap, if they could! Anyway, to be honest, I’ve seen more Saddlebreds that were absolutely insane. But that doesn’t mean that that is the norm. Why condemn certain breeds? From what I’ve seen, personally, Arabians get a seriously bad rap. I have yet to meet a foul, spooky, insane Arabian (which, obviously, doesn’t mean they aren’t out there, but there are crazies in every breed). IMO, they are lovely horses, and I’m not even a real “Arab person”, so to speak. So I’m not particularly biased.
Average sized horse are making a comeback…
It seems that as more average sized horses (15 to 16 hands) are becoming more acceptable in the dressage arena, the market for them seems to be growing. Many AA riders realize they are not the next Olympic star, and are happy with a suitable, managable sized mount. The reason I think Arabian Sport Horses are flurishing is partly due to the acceptence of average sized (vs. super sized) horses in the sport horse arenas. Owning a half Arabian as a competition horse opens great venues for competing. I’d say a half Arabian mare is a great mount for the sport horse enthusiast, not only are all the sport horse arenas open to you, so is the Arabian show ring & sport horse nationals & nearly every warmblood registry out there. Make that cross (for example) Art Deco x your best Arabian mare & you now have the Pinto horse world open to you too.
Besides that, I like how the 1/4 & 1/8th Arabian crosses turn out.
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/177059615.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/177059623.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/177059619.jpg
http://pic16.picturetrail.com/VOL673/3013403/10116001/177059617.jpg
