I had the good fortune to visit with Charles Craver at his home year before last. As we walked around his farm of 100 or so horses - mares and foals in the fields and his barn of 7 stallions - all I saw were lovely people friendly and very relaxed horses. Granted they were not locked up in stalls except for the stallions, but even the stallions had respectful and gentle demeanors, and most of them were also quite decent movers. So I would definitely consider Davenports as a source of Arab blood for the sport horse in addition to the Shagyas others have mentioned.
“WHERE ARE THEY?!”
In this day and age they are not that hard to find. I just did a search of “davenport arabian” and came up with several breeders. I imagine a search of “blue list arabians” or “blue star arabians” or “cmk arabians” would yield plenty.
Waterwitch, funny you should mention the Cravers. I looked on their site and fell in love with a yearling filly. Looks like after 55 years of breeding Davenports, they’re dispersing their herd and retiring.
10 years ago I considered going in that direction. Now, after 7 years of chasing after warmbloods, I’m rethinking istarting to t…
Traks2000, agree 110%.
Just because I can… and because I can’t stand how happy I am with this colt…
This is a 15/32 Arab (yes, 1/32 shy of “half” out of my very old-style *Malachit daughter.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/kat%20colt%2020060808/newguytrot.jpg
He is exactly what I am aiming for. 
I have a few, too. Here is one, a purebred mare and her anglo arabian filly. The mare is Crabbet/Polish.
http://www.chronicleforums.com/Forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10771&d=1148950140
The mare is 15.2H and is Trakehner approved.
wow…take that one home anyday…and actually DO something with him…
I guess I get a bit disturbed when I hear someone make such adamantly negative statements about any breed based on such a LIMITED exposure.(two or three closely related breed farms) .and as another poster pointed out, this opinion doesn’t seem to consider that all of the maladjusted animals are owned and trained by one person or one small group of people???duh???
and to ignore the hundreds of animals/people with experiences related here about the breed’s overall positive attributes is just amazing to me, and I realize that there are many people out there who operate this way…
it just seems a shame…
I am glad it’s also seems a minority opinion nowadays as more people give the breed and it’s crosses a chance to prove themselves, in stead of operating on heresay alone.
I also know that many ‘show barns’ force their animals to wear sweat bands 24/7…you don’t suppose that poster mistook these for cribbing straps, do you?
Well you can dismiss it if you want - a tour of what was considered the BEST of arab breeding farms in the entire state - much more than 2 or 3 closely related barns!!! And these farms were chosen and the tour marketed by the ASSOCIATION!
And, I know what a cribbing strap looks like.
It is nice to know that there may be some better types out there.
And, don’t forget a lot of what you guys think is good foundation arab blood in warmbloods is really shagya.
There are many close minded predjudiced people in the world…but most intelligent people realize that a good horse is a good horse no matter the breed. I use to be a jumper rider back in the day and I couldn’t stand Arabians. So what happens…later in life 2 of my 3 kids end up adoring Arabians and even show Arabians in the Eastern Amateur Arabian Circuit. I end up realizing that there are good ones and there are bad ones as in every breed. The Arabians my kids showed and did well on were great and that is why I now will include a few Arabian crosses in my warmblood breeding program. As I said before, not every Arabian is suited for crossing with warmbloods but then not every warmblood is best to cross with Arabians. A good breeder knows to choose carefully to increase the possibility of the “right” outcome. As we all know, genetics can and does so often throw us a curve ball and we don’t get what we hoped for…but that goes for all breeding.
beautifully said…and I don’t think there is a whole lot more to cover…
tri, What we are talking about has absolutely nothing to do with what the “ASSOCIATION” considers “BEST”.
And some of us can figure out how to read pedigrees, can trace them back to when they first came out of the desert, and actually do know what Shagyas are. But I don’t think anyone here is trying to tell anyone else what to do. I would really like it if all breeders(as well as producers of human children) made their own educated decisions. For some of us, it’s working out pretty good.
Aristotle gave the formula for reasoning: Reasoning=Knowledge+Experience-Assumptions(cubed)
Yogi Berra said, “If you don’t understand, you don’t understand.”
Absolutely!
Like many breeders of “old fashioned” Arabians, I couldn’t care less what the breed Association cares about or promotes. I’m certainly not impressed by what I’ve seen at most of the big heavily promoted Arabian farms. That’s not the kind of Arabians I ride and now breed. I like a good horse of any breed and did most of my riding on WB’s (mostly DWB and Hanoverians) and TB’s until 10 years ago when I discovered the kind of Arabians that I now own. I still ride/school TB’s and WB’s occasionally, but I am enjoying the quick intelligence and responsiveness of my Arabians. (As for “spooky” I had a non-horsey friend comment that my horses were quite calm and laid back; he said his dad’s girlfriend’s horses jumped at every little leaf that blew and mine didn’t seem to be fazed by anything. He asked me if it was a breed thing. Since he isn’t horsey and doesn’t know the breed stereotypes he was puzzled by my laughter at his unintentionally side-splittingly funny comment. His dad’s girlfriend has QH’s!)
As an example of a modern purebred Arabian that has been bred to have athletic structure and has movement suitable for dressage, here’s a PB Arabian stallion (I’m just starting him under saddle now so there are no saddle photos yet, just ones showing his natural movement and carriage at liberty):
at 3 1/2 years old:
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/Legend-air.jpg
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/Legend_arch.jpg
same horse as a yearling:
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/legend_trot2.jpg
at 3 months old:
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/All_Handsome.jpg
He’s not 16+ hands though. 
NeW GuY
:eek: WOW! I can see why!
ANother WoW
She’s beyond beautiful!!!:yes:
#71 Aug. 11, 2006, 07:36 PM
Dazednconfused
Working Hunter Join Date: Feb. 4, 2006
Posts: 255
Quote:
Originally Posted by friesiandriver
Arabs are great crosses with the more spanish type horses such as Andalusians and also with Friesans
Well, being that we have been breeders of both of these breeds (friesians now) I would have to say that I have yet to see an arab friesian cross I like,however, they could be using poor arab mares and they certainly aren’t using dutch stallions. And on top of that, crossbreeding the friesian is why it almost went extinct. It’s a HUGE no no. I don’t think crossbreeding should be done with rare breeds.
I’ve seen 3 or 4 who are awesome. Most of the arab/friesian crosses are by Friesian stallions and not out of Friesian mares, so I don’t understand why you’re saying that doing these crosses would make the breed extinct
The thing is, friesians are still a very rare breed. The mother registry looks down on crossbreeding because it contributed greatly to the decline and almost extiction of their breed. If they were to allow stallions to cross breed, they would in a sense be promoting something that they see as detrimental to the breed. There are only about 4 new stallions approved for breeding each year and they have alot of friesian mares booked to them. Friesians don’t have the best semen to begin with, so wasting that on a horse of another breed would be a crime in their eyes. All of these crossbreds that you have seen are by stallions that are NOT approved by the mother registry, and it is very frowned apon not only that these horses are used for crossbreeding but that they are used as stallions at all, as most of them failed the FHANA stallion inspection only to be used anyways within another(non parent) registry.
As for the arab thing, a REALLY awsome arab stallion that has sired national champion after national champion in the sport horse ring was a horse named Soldat. He was a bey shah son, a top ten halter stallion, a bit of a fire cracker but he was GORGEOUS. 16hh and a 8 and a half in cannon. All of his half arabx tbor warmblood won everything in their paths, many, many national championships. There were about five of them that could have given 90 percent of the open dressage horses a good run for their money. Obviously this isn’t the norm but this post reminded me. Still, I doubt I cross a warmblood mare this way, when there are SO many nice dressage stallions out there but for an arab mare, I think you can sometimes end up with a real nice ladies type dressage horse.
kyla
Tom and Dawn, I’m certainly not trying to tell anyone what to do!
One thing that is repeated over and over in this thread is the word “misconception” .
Well, it is not a MISCONCEPTION if the type of arabs I’m talking about are being bred in huge numbers and the type you are talking about are few and far between.
It is not a MISCONCEPTION if the type of arab I’m talking about is what is heavily promoted by the major registry, ie the ASSOCIATION, of the country and what is MOSTLY seen in the main marketing materials.
A misconception is when you mistakingly think something is one thing when it is another. The arabs that are most common, mostly bred, mostly shown, mostly marketed are the ones I refer to. It would be a MISCONCEPTION to hear someone refer to an arab and think it is a superb, old style type or shagya bred arab. In all probability, it would NOT be, it would be a horrible, swan necked, short strided horse that is the most commonly bred.
Again, this reminds me of the QH arguement. When someone says they have a quarter horse, what do you think of? A steriod pigged out version with small feet? Or a reining horse, or an appendix qh that can compete in the hunters and jumpers? How about a Qh/wb cross as one of the best amatuer horses? That is if it is the right qh AND the right wb.
Well, tri, only 15% of Arabians are shown, and the old fashioned type is more common than you seem to believe. Marketing is one thing, the actual numbers are another.
Those of us with the “good athletic structurally sound” kind of Arabian do get rather tired of people who automatically assume (based on their blind acceptance of the breed organization’s limited marketing strategy) that we have the splindly legged wingnut bug-eyed sort. Since I’ve spent most of my horsey career at open eventing and dressage barns (and none at Arab show barns) I’ve seen lots of good horses of all kinds of breeds. As a result, I tend to judge each horse as an individual – so if someone says they have a QH, I don’t assume any particular sort of QH, nor would I just start ranting at them about how aweful their horse(s) must be because of the stereotype of what is currently favored in the QH halter ring.
Before I found these “old fashioned” arabians about a decade ago (and thought I could help to preserve them) I owned an imported English TB who was a GP dressage horse and an extremely talented young DWB, and I rode plenty of WB schoolmasters including a former member of the Canadian 3-day team at the Seoul Olympics. So I do “get” the WB thing (Someone mentioned State of the Art earlier, when he was in VT, he was at one of the barns where I rode and worked with the stock in their breeding program. He was a real character when I knew him!)
Arabians (Shagya and otherwise) were used to improve lots of other breeds (including WB’s) because they could impart general hardiness and soundness, add some fluidity/elasticity to movement, improve feet and legs, strengthen the coupling, and add some “relative” refinement where coarseness existed. While modern show ring type Arabians obviously do not have these qualities to impart, their lack of these qualities does not mean that there are no longer any Arabians that do possess such desirable characteristics. I still like elite WB’s, btw. I just have chosen to help perpetuate the kind of Arabian that I also like. Plenty of competent people already have the WB breeding covered.
A good horse is a good horse, and though there are trends within bloodlines, in the end it’s the individual horse that is suitable --or not-- for a particular discipline.
Well I totally agree with Dawn and disagree with Tri stating that most Arabians are of this said poor type. There has been a huge shift in the Arabian breed towards breeding more “athletic” individuals. The hey day of the wild, prancing, nervous halter type is slowly fading away. And as a person who now sees the individual as just that an individual, I can tell you from first hand experience raising a couple kids who loved Arabians and showed at Arabian shows…there most certainly has been a “move” to promote the “rideable” Arab. There are many sportarab classes now as well as dressage tests being performed at the Araabian shows. Also, I am seeing more and more purebred Arabians at open venues. At Fairhill Dressage a little while ago, I saw quite a few very nice ones competing. Here is a pic of a 3yo purebred Arabian mare I own who is in foal to Ironman and we are now starting under saddle. She does have that crazy tail, but if you can get past that, I think she is a lovely example of a purebred that is put together nicely and well suited for performance.
I don’t think I’ve ranted at anyone. Sounds like you just don’t like your own organization and you wish the arab people were different.
Telling someone to disregard what the main registration/organization of arabian horses promotes is kind of like saying disregard what the Hanoverian Verband says a hanoverian is or what the KWPN says a dutch warmblood is. I HATE what the Dutch are breeding now - horrible, gaited horse lookalikes with these out of control trots, legs flying all over the place looking like a spider coming down the long side. But hey, there are some older dutch horses that I absolutely love that aren’t like that - funny how those old style dutch horses are still referred to with such reverence. Lots of similarity, yes?
“your own organization” “arab people”
I am a horsewoman who partcipates in open sport horse disciplines (primarily dressage) and I currently own Arabians. I have ridden and trained only at open dressage/eventing barns. I’ve NEVER been to an Arabian breed show, but I have been to plenty open dressage shows, etc. How does that make AHA “my own organization”? Why AHA and not USDF? Why associate me with the breed rather than the discipline? (These are rhetorical questions, btw.)
First you tried to lump all the varieties within the Arabian breed into one category, and now you want to lump all those who own the breed as somehow being a singular group. You do seem rather quick to want to categorize and pidgeon hole–both horses and people.
Finally, a hint of a more nuanced viewpoint instead of blanket generalities. <grin>
But unlike the WB organizations, AHA doesn’t “approve” or critically evaluate what makes an Arabian, they simply register based on pedigree and promote the segment(s) of the breed that the people involved in running the organization think are most marketable. FWIW, the new merged breed organization AHA combines the registry function of the AHRA (Arabian Horse Registry of America) and the promotional fucntion of the old IAHA (International Arabian Horse Association). While IAHA was concerned almost excusively with promoting Arabian “show horses” (they also managed the Half-Arab and Anglo-Arab registry), the new merged entity IS attempting to broaden its efforts including making some in-roads in supporting the sport horse disciplines --both at breed shows AND in open venues.
The similarity between your critique of what you perceive to be the current direction of breeding within the KWPN compared to the former apparent breeding goals and my differentiation between the stereotype of the flighty splindy legged, pogo-stick moving Arabian and the athletic type with good temperaments just proves my point that making blanket judgements without taking the individual horses and the more complicated reality of the situation into consideration is a poor way to make an accurate assessment of those individuals. Yes?
[QUOTE=Dawn J-L]
Absolutely!
Like many breeders of “old fashioned” Arabians, I couldn’t care less what the breed Association cares about or promotes. I’m certainly not impressed by what I’ve seen at most of the big heavily promoted Arabian farms. QUOTE]
Dawn J-L:
I REALLY like your mare, Rieba, and Really really like her colt, Goodfellow!
According to the advertising for Soldat, he was 15.3H. Unfortunately, his foals could be tough. My Soldat daughter (anglo) was the only arab bred horse I have owned that was a complete nutcase. Her full sister was also difficult. Luckily, her full brother was better. Maybe just the mares were difficult?
