warmblood & arab crosses - good idea or bad? (warning LONG!)

allanglos · August 12, 2020, 9:11pm

[QUOTE=tri]

Well, it is not a MISCONCEPTION if the type of arabs I’m talking about are being bred in huge numbers and the type you are talking about are few and far between.

It is not a MISCONCEPTION if the type of arab I’m talking about is what is heavily promoted by the major registry, ie the ASSOCIATION, of the country and what is MOSTLY seen in the main marketing materials.

QUOTE]

The type you are talking about are not being bred at all. Cribbing, stall weaving, etc, is not a heritable trait. It is man made. You give me those same horses and they will cease this behavior at my farm.

Now, if you think the spindly spooky halter horses are the predominant goal of arabian breeders, you have a misconception based on what you see in glossy magazines. If you only visit those same farms that advertise in the glossy magazines, then you will not see what the majority of arabians are like. The old style arabians are only “few and far between” if you limit your exposure to a particular type of arabian farm.

It is also a misconception to think AHA (“the ASSOCIATION”) is promoting these types of arabians. They are not. It is the owners of these horses doing the promoting. AHA simply provides a magazine and the shows for these owners to do so. The same ASSOCIATION also sponsors a national championship show for ONLY sport type arabians, and they are also sponsoring an award for the high score arabian at Dressage at Devon this year. The ASSOCIATION also sponsors classes for reining arabians and half-arabians, some with purses of $80,000. The ASSOCIATION also sponsors arabian racing. If AHA heavily promoted just one type of arabian, they would not offer these other incentives for arabian owners.

winddancerranch · August 12, 2020, 9:11pm

Where are the sport bred Arabians?

Earlier threads mention good lines but don’t forget the Straight Spanish. If it were not for the talented horses and promotional efforts of the Stanley Ranch the emerging Sport Horse Nationals would not be as popular as they are today. Spanish Arabians had a “closed book” for a while given that their borders were closed to new blood. And the breeding was tightly regulated by the Military to create a cavalry mount. They bred for an athletic horse with size that could carry a soldier into battle and a calm trainable temperament. Bone, correct form to function, and powerful rear ends are common traits amongst Spanish Arabians.

One of the leading breeders has written a short history:

http://www.bluemesahorse.com/spanish_history.htm

Spanish Arabians make up about 1% of the registered Arabians in the US. But many of the top winners in both sport and halter have their blood - most folks don’t realize ole MP himself is half Spanish. It makes a great “outcross” even amongst Arabians.

Dewers1100 · August 12, 2020, 9:11pm

The Arabian Horse Association has been at odds with themselves. You have the MAIN RING crowd and then the SPORT HORSE crowd which takes a back seat to the Main Ring people. And that is telling it like it is.
The magazines, The Arabian Horse World, The Arabian Times, and the membership magazine are full of Main Ring horses cause that’s where the money is. The BNT’s and big splashy farms pay a load of money every month in those magazines. The AHA has NOTHING to do with those who promote in these publications. The Sport Horse, PB or HA does not get the respect deserved except for maybe that jumper. And that horse only gets respect because they match the Main Ring people in advertising. It’s a crime, the Sport Horse is where the association should be looking but MONEY talks and everything else gets pushed into the background. How come the Sport Horses were removed from the main NATIONAL show? Because nobody wanted them there, that’s why. There are plenty of great PB and HA Sport Horses around who possess great athletic ability but nobody ever sees them unless the owners spring for mega bucks in the magazines. I’m new to this forum and don’t want to offend anybody but I think the Arabian Sport Horse gets a raw deal from their own association.

ancientoaks · August 12, 2020, 9:11pm

the only 'family ’ strain of arabs we tend to shy from are the ‘modern’ straight egyptians…and am sure there are exceptions…

We have found sterling individuals in all the strains, altho the Crabbet and Polish seem to have the largest proportion…and love the strains crossed, at it seems to increase prepotency and vigor…especially for outcrossing to warmbloods and other breeds (Like TB’s)

the strains are not nearly so ‘distinctive’ from one another as they used to be when breeding was far more intimate and regionalized…AI has changed all that…

tri · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

I’m not making sweeping generalities at all. I’ve already said I like the old style arabian and I’ve said I like the shagya. I still believe that the bug-eyed sort is the more predominant type being bred and apparently others with much more experience in the arab world think so too.

Also, spanish arabs, as said, equal 1%

Someone else asked “where are they!!!” when referring to the coveted 'old style". So I am NOT the only one who sees barnful after barnful of the bug eyed sort.

Dawn, you asked “Why associate me with the breed rather than the discipline?”

Well, duh! Because we are talking about A BREED!!! NOT A DISCIPLINE!

Dawn, you also stated, “they simply register based on pedigree and promote the segment(s) of the breed that the people involved in running the organization think are most marketable.”

Well, I think that says exactly what I’ve been saying! The bug eyed sort is considered more marketable, that means more popular too!!!

Look, I am just saying what you guys are saying, that I don’t like the bug eyed sort and I certainly wouldn’t use one in my breeding program. Fine INDIVIDUALS who have been proven to add some kind of positive influence to sport horse breeding is fine by me but I think with most modern day arabs, you won’t find the same advantages as has been historically acheived by certain, mostly shagya stallions.

Dewers1100 · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

tri:

I’m not making sweeping generalities at all. I’ve already said I like the old style arabian and I’ve said I like the shagya. I still believe that the bug-eyed sort is the more predominant type being bred and apparently others with much more experience in the arab world think so too.

Dawn, you also stated, “they simply register based on pedigree and promote the segment(s) of the breed that the people involved in running the organization think are most marketable.”

Well, I think that says exactly what I’ve been saying! The bug eyed sort is considered more marketable, that means more popular too!!!

Look, I am just saying what you guys are saying, that I don’t like the bug eyed sort and I certainly wouldn’t use one in my breeding program. Fine INDIVIDUALS who have been proven to add some kind of positive influence to sport horse breeding is fine by me but I think with most modern day arabs, you won’t find the same advantages as has been historically acheived by certain, mostly shagya stallions.

Actually, I believe you are referring to what is now winning in the ring. When judges reward poor conformation and straight legs you end up with everyone jumping on the bangwagon to breed to those horses because WOW, they are a Scottsdale, Regional, or National Champions. And let’s not forget the Sweepstakes game. It’s called FAD breeding. The grand old Champs of the past would get the gate in todays Arabian show world. I realize that this thread is not about the downhill slide of the Arab world but I will give you this. If tomorrow, I bred the best athletic Arab mare to the best the WB on the planet, nobody in the AHA would notice. I could win the Gold Cup and Olympics too and still not be able to get on the cover of any Arabian magazine. The Arabian Sport Horse PB or HA is considered by some to be a reject from the main ring. However, there are still those going against the tide and trying to hold on to the old great look of the Arab. Unfortunately, the BNT’s have the upper hand in the show ring and when you rule the show ring, you rule the PR and when you rule the PR, we are back to square one. Bug eye straight leg horses who have the worst movement you have ever seen. The exception to the rule, the Polish mare, El Dorada. And if you could see what beat her for Supreme Champion at Scottsdale, you would faint.

Stop looking at the magazines and check out those who breed sport horses or those who have the Russian or Polish bloodlines. That’s where you will find your good horses.

Trakehners2000 · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

Dewers1100:

The Arabian Horse Association has been at odds with themselves. You have the MAIN RING crowd and then the SPORT HORSE crowd which takes a back seat to the Main Ring people. And that is telling it like it is.
The magazines, The Arabian Horse World, The Arabian Times, and the membership magazine are full of Main Ring horses cause that’s where the money is. The BNT’s and big splashy farms pay a load of money every month in those magazines. The AHA has NOTHING to do with those who promote in these publications. The Sport Horse, PB or HA does not get the respect deserved except for maybe that jumper. And that horse only gets respect because they match the Main Ring people in advertising. It’s a crime, the Sport Horse is where the association should be looking but MONEY talks and everything else gets pushed into the background. How come the Sport Horses were removed from the main NATIONAL show? Because nobody wanted them there, that’s why. There are plenty of great PB and HA Sport Horses around who possess great athletic ability but nobody ever sees them unless the owners spring for mega bucks in the magazines. I’m new to this forum and don’t want to offend anybody but I think the Arabian Sport Horse gets a raw deal from their own association.

I am a member of AHA, a sport horse owner and am completely thrilled with how AHA treats it’s sport horse people THEY ARE DOING A GREAT JOB and have created an entire national show for a select group or discipline group…
I don’t know of any other breed, including ALL warmblood breeds in America that are creating a national sporthorse show for their BREED. And, we are the only “group” of similar disciplines (sporthorse) that are given a national show!!! I didn’t hear of any Arabian Saddleseat Nationals or AHA Western Pleasure Nationals…did you??? Do the traditional Sport Horses have a national show??? We are blessed and thankful that AHA has taken such a bold initive in this area.

Trakehners2000 · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

ditto on the straight egyptians. There are some exceptions, though as a general rule, the ones that are of modern type that are being rewarded at shows like the Egyptian Event are not the type of horse I would want in my Warmblood. It seems like the ones that are more sane & quiet have legs that are horrible, or too short necks or extremely weak joints… while they have great movement when they are young, once they are in work undersaddle, and asked to carry weight on the hindlegs, they do not have the joint strength to do so.

I too, favor the Polish lines and would like to learn more about Russian & Shagya Arabians. I have seen some impressive Russian horses, though the most impressive one I saw was by a well advertised sire that has & throws clubbed hooves…so in the end, what looked like a magnificent horse, was a turn off, as clubbed feet are not anything I want in my breeding program…
As far as other Arabian strains go, the Shagya seems to be a wonderful horse & I would like to get to get to know some someday to see how they are. For now, I stick to the Polish lines, they have shown themselves to be calmer, athletic, sound, reliable and personable.

pintopiaffe · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

interesting…

My guy is Polish & Swedish on top, Crabbett on the bottom. Good enough for RPSI… His half-sister (yes, damline) was Old Approved.

I know an embarassing little amount about Arab bloodlines and breeding–luckily HIS breeder knows a ton. But I just found this really, really interesting. His crosses are really spectacular, yet you really can’t tell quite what they are… Not as typey as some 1/2 Arabs.

allanglos · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

[QUOTE=tri]
I still believe that the bug-eyed sort is the more predominant type being bred and apparently others with much more experience in the arab world think so too.

QUOTE]

Who are these “others”?

Everyone here has tried to tell you that this “bug-eyed” type is not predominant. I have been showing/breeding arabians since 1973 and have multiple HOTY and National awards. Is that not “experience in the arab world…”? Do the arab owners responding here not seem credible to you?

The modern day arabian is very suitable for sport breeding. There is a small segment that is not and never was suited to this sort of thing, but they are in the minority (i.e. fine boned and often poorly conformed halter horses). Please don’t base your ideas of the usefulness of arabians on the assumption that the old style arabians are not the norm.

EvergreenDors · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

Holy Cow, I have read all 6 pages of this thread and have found a good many of the points valid and a good many of the comments unfounded.

While I may not be as eloquent as many of you, I must put in my two cents worth.

I know, as do ALL of you that you cannot change one persons mind by arguing, you must prove your point, not by a show of words but by experience. The negative comments regarding Arabs will probably NEVER be changed until the Arab folks change their Arabs. Now hold on, don’t freak out just yet, hear me out.

Main ring Arab antics, for the most part are ugly, period. There are a few trainers who don’t “haze” their horses and just show them as best as they can. However, to the non-Arab person watching this ihazing it is frightning and confusing. Case in point, I was just at East Coast Championships and a woman asked us what was the point of the halter class and what were the judges looking for? You see, one horse was shanked so bad, he fell over in the ring, tortted off unsound and won the class. Another class had another horse flip over backwards and the hadler smiled like it was a daily training habit. In the warmup ring you had LOTS of bag whips, shaker cans and the like trying to get the horse to look “Araby”. So this poor woman, who we invited to our barn, yes I am an Arab breeder and shower, to show her what a “true” Arab is. The “in-your-tent” personality. The playfulness and warm soul-seeing eyes. Well, she was pretty put off and never showed up. She will certainly never own an Arab, nor will you be able to change her mind about the “flightiness” or craziness of them for a long time to come if ever. Hense the statement that we as Arab owners need to change the perception of non-Arab folks by changing how things are done at the shows and at the big farms. In fact my liflong goal is to change people one horse at a time. I have converted QH, TB and basic Non-Arab people into Arab owners by having them at our farm meeting our horses and being around them. At the same time a few big Arab trainers won’t even look at my stock because I have “Taken the Arab out of them”. But that is fine as I have no trouble selling my babies.

I am trying to get to my point but it takes a bit of backround to do it.

I am realitively new to the Arab world, only breeding for the past 4 years but managing Arab barns off and on for the past 16 years. As a youngster I rode whatever was around. I never cared about the pedigree or the breed. I rode what we had. As an adult I really didn’t care either until I found the programs of the AHA. Especially the youth programs. Fast forward a few years…

Now, as a breeder I own a purebred stallion of, in my mind, impeccable breeding. He has halter blood as well as performance blood. The performance blood is NOT saddle seat it is working western or english. He is equally Polish, Russian and Egyptian. I have chose a selection of purebred mares for him from the older style, older pedigrees, not the “fad” bloodlines of today. I do not pay as much attention to Polish, vs. Russian, vs, Egyptian. I have a mix of all. Now to date my stallion has 10 foals on the ground, the oldest being 3. He has 1 being shown consistantly and one off and on and one retired from the ring and readiying herself for the breeding shed. The rest are friends, pets and loved for their disposition, regardless of the conformational correctness. A filly, the one shown a lot has won a ribbon at the coveted Upperville show in VA. She is shown on another thread and I am not sure how to link it here, but she was shown as an Arab in the pony hunter breeding class and pulled a ribbon. According to the show she is the first ARAB in the 153 year running of the show to pull a ribbon. Surely she is not, but she was the first to be listed as an ARAB in the program. We got some looks and all eyes were on us as we entered the ring. She was a true ambassador to the breed, falling asleep in the ring and behaving beautifully. It is too bad the lady from East Coast wasn’t there to see. Anyhow, this same filly is an East Coast reserve champion, a regional Top three winner and a National Top Ten winner Sport Horse In Hand mare as well as a halter winner at class A but no higher. She is shown in halter braided and in a bridle because the rules state that halter horses must be shown with full manes unless the are shown with H/J or dressage appointments (ie, bridles and braids). So she doesn’t hold her own in the MR at big shows because she has a performance body not a freakishly long neck and tubelike body and she is shown braided mane and tail. She has a round croup and not a tabletop topline, and that is fine with me. I am fighting the current trying to show her that way. But I do it anyway to prove a point. Mind you she is three.

The other showing baby is a 3yo gelding who is also a National Top Ten Sport Horse in Hand.

Now seeing as said stallion is producing winning Sport Horse babies and he held his own when showing at Open Dressage shows as a 4 and 5 year old, and I was producing 1/2 Arabs (QH, TB, pony) for people wanting a little bit smaller, refined horse for the smaller more petite woman or man as well as purebreds; I was encouraged to buy an Oldenberg mare. She would give me the true dressage feeling and some insight as to what to look for in a good Arab cross for Sport Horse disciplines in the open show market. More specifically dressage. She would give me the feeling U/S that I was to strive for. She is big, 17.1, huge massive feet, huge massive, head, huge massive everything. I started her undersaddle, got her going well and hated everything about her as compared to my Arabs. She is bred out the wazoo, she is by Contucci and out of a Riverman daughter, she was premium foal at her inspection. She is heavy in all ways and while I love to look at her, she is darn near confomationally perfect as well as proportionatly perfect, I hate riding her. It seems to be a bit of a fight . When I ask for something she asks “do we have to”. She is like a beligerant child. She always ends up doing as I ask, but with reluctance. ALL the Arabs I have ever owner or had the pleasure of training or working with would not ask “do we have to” they were always wanting more and “when are we doing this again and can we try this too”? Now has the attitude of this particular mare turned me off of Warmbloods? No, it just makes me realize just how different a pedigree can be. She is so strong for her traits that it takes a lot to get used to. Just like the Arabs are so strong in thier traits. So where is this story going?

Well I took a look at this mare and took a look at my stallion and bred them. Poor guy i had to do AI due to the size difference, he is 15.1 or so, haven’t measured him in a few years as it makes no difference to me. So the resulting foal is due early next spring and it will be interesting to see what comes of it.

I could go on with the attributes of my guy, his willingness, his kindness, the community events he goes to with lots of kids around him and lots of photos posing with the ARABIAN STALLION. He, I guess is not typical, and I am, I guess, the luckiest woman in the world to have him, but would I discount any Warmblood breed due to the one experience I have had and insist on Arab blood…no. Would I say that the Arab influence in blood for all breeds is very important…yes. I think that while a good purebred is a wonderful thing, an excellent partbed is worth it’s weight in gold.

Should we cross the WB and the Arab, yes, should it be buried 4 or 5 generations back, maybe yes maybe no. But we all need to agree that it NEEDS to be there. In some percentage the Arab blood infused in any breed will only enhance the breed and add positive qualities (if done right).

I hope this all makes sense as I could argue this all day long, but I would rather invite people out to see for themselves, there is no weaving, cribbing or ANY bad habits at our farm. We do have one bad habit though, they all want to be in your pocket, they all want your attention and want to pick your pockets, even the big warmblood, but she is kind of big to be that close! So maybe her foal will be a bit more refined, a bit more willing and a bit more Araby!!

EvergreenDors · August 12, 2020, 9:12pm

Holy Cow, I have read all 7 pages of this thread and have found a good many of the points valid and a good many of the comments unfounded.