This is not about the inside battles of the Arab world. Who’s to say what’s the NORM? The Polish horse who wins in dressage in both the Arab Shows and Open All Breed shows or that somewhat genetic fluke, the Russian jumper? (no disrespect, this jumper did not come from Sport Horse Breeding) Is the NORM the halter horse which is sliding downhill as I type or the Sport Horse that is gaining by leaps and bounds. It would appear that the breeding stock classes are the NORM but not in my books. Let’s not forget the great Endurance Arabians or the great Park Horses. If your point of reference is only magazines ads or those fancy wine tasting tours to the Arab farms, then you have been officially blindsided. Take a good look at all the links provided in this thread and then tell me what you think is the NORM.
A quick ps,
I have been told or maybe I read it somewhere that the top winning Arabian Working Hunter horse, Showgun, has been bred to a champion WB mare. It will be interesting to see what this breeding produces.
ok, I looked. And I am confused. What exactly are you guys talking about - the purebred arab (like in the weblinks provided) or the warmblood/arab F1 generation?
This is one of the links provided and it is everything that I think is hideous about arabs http://cmkarabians.com/newalbion/stallions/
Also, most of the pics in most of the weblinks provided show purebred arabs in the typical arab stance loose in a ring or pasture somewhere. There were a couple dressage pics (so so quality, yes they can get on the bit so can most horses) and there were a few jumping photos. The jumping photos showed mostly a flat backed jump (should I say typical for arabs, cringe & flame suit on) with knees even (good) but mostly at just horizontal to the ground (the bare minimum required to compete at anything other than the local level, certainly not super competitive).
I did see where some of those farms talk about crossing them with some warmbloods but saw little in the way of resulting offspring pics.
So if it is your intent to educate me and others on the merit of the F1, please provide links and evidence that depict that. And please, PLEASE don’t tell me that some F1 cross received a good inspection score at some warmblood inspection - that is NOT NOT PERFORMANCE! sorry but that is one of my pet peeves.
As I have already stated, I agree that some arab blood is good - every 6 generations or so and it has to be the right arab. They are used to add bone, then you have to get rid of the small size, flagging tail, too weird of a face (arabs can give you a pretty head as soon as you water down that caricature horse head attribute). And I agree that a wb cross on a smaller breed to create a ammy horse for smaller people has some merit, but can you provide something that shows that these horses are going to the next big thing in the big dressage, hunter and jumper rings? Aside from a small handful of outstanding individuals, I don’t see the F1 providing it. Whereas, the warmblood and the Wb/tb F1 crosses are already out there doing it.
I am not nearly as eloquent as many who posted here, am rather basic, manure shoveling type…but you, Tri, are becoming rather tiresome in your rantings…
What is it exactly (since you INSIST on FACT)that you ‘hate about arabs’ in that link you referenced?
AND, did you not go to the link I posted a zillion years ago showing over 219 photos of arabs jumping (many competing at those ‘upper levels’ you are so concerned about) and MANY many are not jumping ‘flat’… by the way, do any TB’s or WB’s jump ‘flat’? or have you seen so many examples of so many breeds that you feel qualified to make these ‘all inclusive’ statements about one particular breed?
Perhaps it would be fair to start saying similar things (without merit or basis) …90% of the warmbloods I have seen have ugly heads…or are terribly stupid…or move too heavy…or are hard to train…and so on??
Quite some time ago, I argued AGAINST this warmblood mis-labeling and ‘misconception’ on an arab forum…you see, those ‘arabian people’ thought all of the above!! Wonder why? lack of appropriate exposure, that’s why…
and what is wrong with showing a horse loose in a pasture somewhere? I have sure seen ALOT of WB videos showing these fancy stallions ‘loose’ in a pasture somewhere…AND I can assure you, that many many many of them are merely ‘ok’ at the discipline they were ‘bred’ for.based on the footage on the videos…In fact, were they ARABS on these videos they would be criticized mightily, but since they are WBs, well then they are ‘acceptable’
I cannot tell you how many dropped lower legs, and forelegs, crooked approaches, and flat backs I have seen on videos of ‘jumping’ warmbloods…does that make them ALL inferior?? or make me think they are?
of course not.
Many posters here have given examples, either of their (with their performance records- certainly they should not have to SHOW you the pictures to ‘prove it’!) personal horses, OR of horses known to be doing well in the performance arena…doing well, Tri, not competing at the Olympics as may be…
You see so dead set on 'they aren’t much good because you can’t get ‘upper level’ work out of them…
do you understand what a numbers game is? Do you really realize how many warmbloods and TB’s are out there competing compared to arabs - just the sheer numbers of them? so doesn’t it make reasonable sense to you that this obviously raises the PERCENTAGE of good ones visible?
You don’t understand (and you are not alone, the AHA is only beginning to understand it) that the VAST MAJORITY of arabian owners don’t
- show
2.breed - or aspire to the Olympics…
they have chosen this breed because of the people oriented personality and the versatility to do ‘backyard’ stuff that doesn’t make the glossies…so obviously this reduces greatly the number of arabians and the crosses that are PUT IN FRONT of others in competitive sport…and therefore, reduces the number of GOOD ones …just like any other breed…
MOST buyers of warmbloods don’t buy them to put in their backyards and let the kids fool with them…or TB’s for that matter. THOSE breeds are purchased primarily for a particular sport, and rarely is that animal put to another use…
And, since you are so adamant about the ‘value’ of breeding for a specific purpose and how it seems to ‘guarantee’ success at that endeavor, I AM confused about your bizarra comment about inspections not being relevant to a future performance horse…
hmmm…the warmblood world invented this process and it seems to have worked well for them…the entire PURPOSE of the inspection is to assess suitability for sport…NOT guarantee it…only time can do that…
AND it is a tad insulting to those of us with either Arabs, arab crosses OR even our warmblood friends that have horses who have done well to have someone say that receiving a good score at an inspection is somehow without real merit…
many posters here have given you examples who have arab and arab crosses doing well, that have done well and you seem to have chosen to ignore them…
We have personally been told by well known competitors that they appreciate and respect the breed and it’s abilities and contributions. What more do you need, unless this has just become a fun game of ‘let’s argue’?
no one here is trying to change your mind, it’s set in concrete anyway, but are merely responding to each of your diatribes…
and I still would like a FACTUAL explanation of what you ‘hated’ about those horses at that link…some of the them were quality individuals, that, if you blacked out their heads, you and a other naysayers out there would not have known they were arabs…
Not QUITE what you are asking for, but I competed an Anglo Arab x Trak in dressage and eventing for several years. His sire was Mikado, but I am afraid I don’t know his dam’s pedigree- but she was a h/j/event horse.
His only problem was that he was short (14h 3") but that didn’t stop him being competitive in Training level eventing, carrying me (tehnically I am MUCH too big for him).
He is still sound, and still teaching students to jump, at 30+, which is pretty impressive to me.
You went right where I suspected you would go, to the HALTER horse. Forget horses bred for HALTER. This is just one website out of hundreds out there. I mentioned 3 horses in my past posts. The polish horse who just won at Pebble Beach in Dressage. This horse completes at open dressage shows as well as the Arabian shows. He’s not on those websites. OKW Entrigues, a beautiful example of a dressage horse. Could he win at Oylmpic level, no, but how many bred for dressage actually make it to that level. Not many. Showgun, also not pictured on those websites. Both of these horses are stallions. Both are well bred and perfect for WB crossing. The Russian jumper who was awarded the Special Recognition Award from the AHA (for outstanding performance on the OPEN circuit in California) is NOT a stallion so that’s a moot point. His bloodlines are from the first triple crown Halter champion, * Muscat. Most agree that this jumper is a genetic fluke with a jumping style more likened to the WB than the Arabian. Showgun is another example of excellent jumping style, no flat jumping. He’s beautiful to watch over the fences. Everyone wants to tack the word FLAT to the Arab jumper. Not so! I would also like to add a horse out of Pennsylvania. A mare who won the HOTY national championship for H/J Arabians. I hope I get this name right. Angelica Bay. I saw an ad on this horse in the AHA magazine. Very accomplished Hunter jumper. There was also someone in Half Arabians who won just about everything in HOTY, I think she is posting on this thread. Please step forward, your horses are some of the best out there.
I’m not trying to sway anyone to run out an breed to an Arabian. All I’m saying is that do not rule them out. Don’t judge from magazines or even websites. Go check them out for yourself, in person. A picture is just one second in time. I’ve seen some pretty bad pictures of WB’s over fences and it would be foolish to judge them by one shot over a fence. We all want the same thing, a good sound horse who can win at the shows. If Arab blood is not your thing, then so be it and no harm done by this thread. Action speaks louder than words on a page so let’s see what the future holds for the Arab Sport Horse before we argue this point into the ground.
She went right to the halter horse and formed her opinion.
Obviously, she didn’t see the rest of the horses because she went blind on the Halter horse.
my husband’s 16. h purebred (admittedly not the 'F1 requested but a good example of a not so bad hunter arab)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ZOLTAAR.jpg
and a very influential stallion (purebred) in early German warmblood breeding (where they I am sure, USED the resulting F-1’s…after all they couldn’t eat them and continue the line)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/gharibjumping.jpg
and then perhaps Tri could honestly (I am game to hear) what might be ‘wrong’ with this F-1 youngster…reg. premium w/GOV…(2 mo in photo) and I realize that ‘just because’ he recieved a favorable inspection doesn’t ‘mean’ anything…
I would love to have an explanation of that cooment as well.
to discount a horse that ‘received a good score’ at a wb inspection is not just to ditz the arabs and F-1’s…but to also ditz the warmbloods that ALSO so recieved…doesn’t make sense…
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v481/ancientoaks/ironstone6wkstrotawesomearena.jpg
there are tons more examples out there, just as there is of wonderful warmbloods (of which many of us ‘ayyrab’ folks LOVE to pieces…)
sincerely and honestly appreciate, admire, and love…for what THEY can do and contribute…variety really IS the spice of life.
side note: My bad for overlooking the choice of photos displayed on the internal pages of the New Albion site. (Presentation really does mean a lot. Photos that play up the romantic notion of the “ethereal beauty” of the Arabian horse are not helpful to supporting the ideal of the Arabian as an athletic riding horse.) However, I’d hate for the impression to be left that Mr. Bowling is a breeder of “halter horses”. He is a breeder of “old fashioned” bloodline horses that have had competitive success in the endurance world (including the Tevis) and are used as mounts for Pony Clubbers and compete at least at the local level (no, not at the Olympics) in dressage and eventing AFIAK. He is NOT involved in Arabian halter showing, nor are horses from his program desirable with the people who show in that venue. (I suspect that he would either cringe or laugh to be labelled as such.) If you can see beyond the flowing manes, flagged tails, and flared nostrils note that most of the horses on that site (unlike what is winning in the halter ring) have good depth and breadth of body with balanced structure --with several of them exhibiting lovely shoulders and deep hindquarters. Meh.
Back to the main topic:
This aged stallion is just a lovely example of horseflesh:
http://www.rtm-anglo-arabs.com/Zar_at_HCCWeb.jpg
Just scrumptious. Knowing what’s behind his pedigree (http://www.rtm-anglo-arabs.com/Ofir.html) I would expect that he would cross well w/ WB’s, but I cna’t prove it. (He’s worth posting twice <grin>)
Earlier in the thread, I posted links to photos of my young stallion. For another discussion of the suitability --or not-- of Arabians as sport horses, I made this comparison composite of a photo of my then 3 1/2 year old Arabian stallion at liberty and a photo illustration from a famous dressage book (written by an internationally reknowned individual) illustrating an exemplary extended trot in GP competition:
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/compareWB.jpg
Sure my young Arab is flagging his tail (I’m learning to live with it, really I am <grin> ), but note that it is not impeding the engagement of his hindquarters or the lovely lift and reach of his shoulders. IMO, he is demonstrating extraordinary elasticity, beautiful carriage, and excellent suspension. Based only on foal photos, this particular horse was my inspiration for starting a purebred Arabian breeding program to produce dressage horses. (So far he’s lived up to --or exceeded my expectations.) Sicne I have a small farm, I’m going to focus on my purebred program for a bit before I may venture out into WBx’s, but this fellow sure looks like the sort that could cross well with the right WB’s. 
This is a yearling filly (my first homebred) that will eventually be bred to my stallion (and other suitable ones):
http://www.faeriecourtfarm.com/photos/Titania_yr_trot.jpg
tri, you gotta give me about a decade or so to get some foals on the ground and competing to prove my point!!!
Thanks, ancientoaks for the great jumping photos. 
http://www.daydreamarabians.com/showgun.html
Showgun, with his rider, Kristen Hardin. Some of you from the H/J shows in California may recognize her. You have to scroll down to the bottom of the page to see a jumping shot. This horse has already been cross bred to a WB. I can’t find a website for OKW Entrigues. The Russian jumper, Russian Roulett doesn’t apply. He’s a gelding and most of his bloodlines are Halter horses that are long gone.
The site appears under construction, but OKW Entrigue is on the front page:
http://www.oakwerth.com/ He’s usually featured on the trainer’s site, but that one is completely down for revision at the moment.
Trakhener x Arab at a very awkward 2 years of age… http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/magikat.jpg
The RPSI BOOK I Approved (pending performance scores) sire, 15/16ths Arab:
http://s2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/sons%20of%20the%20wind%20show/
For the record, he’s from quite the line of show horses… <grins>
Three day old Trak x Arab
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y6/pintopiaffe/kat%20colt%2020060808/newguytrot.jpg
on the photo comparison, Dawn…EXACTLY my point…your arab is exhibiting AT LEAST (in my humble and not very renowned opinion, BETTER) the breadth and depth of movement of the WB comparion horse…HAD you not mentioned (perhaps on another thread, let’s say) what he was…he most like would have recieved accolades from some who feel arabs ‘incapable’…and there would have been mea culpa when his ‘true’ breeding revealed.
Have seen this quite a few times (altho this is a remarkable example of what IS possible)…so thank you for the interesting shots…and it shows US exactly why we like the cross…a stallion like yours on a warmblood mare (OR a mare , and I am sure they are out there, we have one at least) on a fabulous warmblood stallion…of which there are many to choose from…the best of both worlds can be had…
Arabs bred to warmbloods
I have been watching this thread for a while and feel I need to comment. First of all, there are many horses of many breeds (not warm bloods or tb’s)that can and do the job in the working hunters and jumpers. Why? Because they have a gift and have been trained and ridden correctly. Why do small people HAVE to ride huge horses? What is wrong with a horse that suits you size wise? When people start bashing a breed they are using the WORST examples to compare with their own breed. I am involved with Arabians after a lifetime with open hunters and jumpers. I know what a working hunter, jumper or equitation rider are suppose to look like and what they are suppose to be doing. I train my Arabs in that fashion, fully expecting them to perform up to a certain standard, capable of beating warmbloods and tb’s.
Most Arab shows have carded hunter judges doing the working hunters and yes, sometimes they have to pin the least worst but generally they have some fine horses to chose from and every judge I have talked with commented favorably on the winning performances and said if the horse does the job and does it well, they would pin them in open competition no matter what the breed.
As far as the argument that Arabs jump with a flat back and aren’t going to the Olympics: How many horses of ANY breed go to the Olympics? How many horses show in the 4 foot hunter divisions? How many horses jump in bigger than Prelim? How many of you who bash the breed show at these heights? How many horses how in the 3 foot divisions? Often the biggest classes at any show. Arabs are small horses that do just fine over small fences. Good movers and intelligent that if TRAINED and RIDDEN CORRECTLY can do the job! Flat backed-except in the 3’6" and higher, MOST of the horses jump flat because most of their riders would get jumped out on a horse that REALLY uses it’s back!
Most modern riding horses have Arab blood in their backgrounds already and adding it again can only improve them. Arabs are very sound horses with good feet and most are still going when the warmblood has long been retired. The Arabian sport horse divisions are growing rapidly and the big name breeders will soon discover this is where things are going. All it will take is one of the biggies to sell a horse that becomes a major success in one of the sport horse venues and they’ll all be jumping in, spending the money to breed horses with bone and substance and ABILITY
Enjoy your warmbloods in the big divisions but I think I will stick with putting my small riders on safe, reliable, good jumping, WELL TRAINED Arabians!
[QUOTE=tri]
So if it is your intent to educate me and others on the merit of the F1, please provide links and evidence that depict that.
QUOTE]
OK, give this one a whirl:
www.animalpages.com/anglo-arabians
The home page is a purebred arabian gelding. The other pages are divided by purebreds and anglo arabians. The anglo pages show F1 and F2. Click on the thumbnails for full photos. For the over fence pics, bear in mind most shows did not have photographers, so these pics are limited.
[QUOTE=Dewers1100]
I’m still waiting to see the day that the Arabian Magazines have the guts
to feature something other than Main Ring on their cover or see a Sport Horse as their centerfold. QUOTE]
That day is here. The current AHA magazine has an endurance horse gracing it’s cover.
Oh, and years ago, the cover of Arabian Horse World had the purebred gelding, El Khyam on its cover. He showed both arab and open hunters and jumpers. The link of arab H/J’s provided by AncientOaks shows pics of him.
[QUOTE=Dewers1100]
. The Russian jumper who was awarded the Special Recognition Award from the AHA (for outstanding performance on the OPEN circuit in California) is NOT a stallion so that’s a moot point. His bloodlines are from the first triple crown Halter champion, * Muscat. Most agree that this jumper is a genetic fluke with a jumping style more likened to the WB than the Arabian. QUOTE]
A “genetic fluke”? Huh?? If you look at his pedigree, he is mostly Crabbet/Polish (the Crabbet via Raseyn, Raffles, Skowronek, Abu Farwa). Even his 1/4 “Russian” breeding (his maternal gsire is Muscat) is mostly Crabbet/Polish (If you look at Muscat’s four generation pedigree, only 1/8th is RASB. The rest is from Poland or England). Actually, he has more Egyptian breeding than Russian through the Nazeer son, *Talal (his dam’s maternal gsire).
The sire’s maternal gdam is a mare named Lakshmi. She is also the dam of a stallion that sired a half arab I had for years, who went National Champion jumper in the 70’s. I also foxhunted him, and his previous owner regularly foxhunted him sidesaddle. When I sold him (at a hunt, BTW), he showed entirely open and earned many championships in the Ammy Owner hunters at the biggest hunter shows in the PNW. (The new owner changed his name, and I don’t know what name he showed under).
The sire’s paternal gsire is Bask (Polish). He is well known for his athletic ability and fabulous movement.
So, this gelding’s pedigree is just what most people here have been claiming to make the best arabian sporthorses, Polish/Crabbet (CMK).
And what do you mean he doesn’t jump like an arab? He IS an arab so how can he jump like anything else? Many arabs have the talent for jumping, so why say, for those that do, that they don’t jump like arabs??
[quote=“allanglos”]
I should have restated that I was referring to the World and the Times. So the only reference to anything other than a Main Ring horse on the cover was YEARS ago. You know as well as I do the Arab magazines are not falling all over the sport horse. The AHA magazne has changed staff so many times but the fact remains, they do very little for the Sport Horse. Did you get the SPORT HORSE issue of the world? Who’s on the cover! How many articles are in that issue regarding Sport Horses. I only see a story on the young rider and her horse Aurora. And I also seems to remember the owner of this horse saying the AHA magazine gave her just a inch or two in their magazine and this young kid and rider were USDF Junior rider. And since we are on the subject, did the AHA ever publish or even acknowledge the horses who were USEF HOTY Champions, No. We all read the other forum and we all know what’s going on. I’m not hear to argue with you, only to say that the magazines and the association don’t give much to the Sport Horse in the way of publicity.
Was this horse bred for jumping, NO. Does Chopmist breed Sport Horses, NO. If you look on the data base, they are breeders of main ring horses. If this horse would have had a different owner, he would have never jumped one fence. He was a PET! You on the other hand have bred for this disipline or are obviously a sport horse breeder. When I say he’s a genetic fluke, I’m referring to the fact that this horse was given away as a pet with nobody ever knowing he had talent in jumping. I read the stories on this horse also. He’s been profiled so many times it clear to me that this horse just lucked out with an owner who gave him great training. I saw this horse jump at Scottsdale and win two jumper championships at the age of 18!!! I’m not an expert on jumpers but I love to watch them over the fences. I can see when one horse jumps with legs snapped tight and others don’t. I can only go by what I saw at Scottsdale. I don’t run to ever jumper show or follow any one horses career. I look at this horse’s bloodlines and see nothing that would indicate this horse would have the ability to not only win in jumpers but compete on a regular basis at the all breed shows at 20 years of age! I have stated more than once that the best bloodlines are Polish and Russian.
But let’s be fair, Bask never jumped one fence and neither did Muscat. There is not ONE jumper in Russian Roulett’s immediate bloodlines. We can pick around in the GGrandsire’s or GGranddams and weed thru horses 4 generations back but nobody ever said Russian/Polish/CMK were not great horses. Whatever he has will die with him, he’s a gelding and I believe has NO siblings. I guess Chopmist didn’t care for this breeding and moved on, giving the colt away to his owner. So much for breeding for a great jumper. The sire of Russian Roulett has never produced a jumper or even a good hunter horse. He’s also in the date base as a sweepstakes nominated horse. Check out his get. Check out their disiplines.
Adding: Please understand I am in agreement with you regarding Russian and Polish horses. I am also in agreement with the idea of crossing the warmblood into these lines. I’m not the bad guy here, nor am I the one who stated that Arab’s jump flat. I believe that’s what prompted this discussion. Since this thread is not about jumpers or comparing who is or isn’t a flat jumper, let
move back on topic before someone sends a dart thru my computer screen.
Arab sporthorse breeders
I will say it again: once a big name breeder sells a horse that burns up the sport horse ring in one form or the other, they will start producing horses for jumping and dressage and they will put all those big bucks into the covers of the magazines and big articles will appear. AHW only profiles horses and breeders that advertise with them. Those ads are expensive so Joe Average Sport Horse person probably doesn’t have the advertising budget to put them in(yet!) so he doesn’t get a profile.
The sport horse rings is where the Arab world is headed and one of these days the powers that be will see it and start putting the spotlight that way. It is still new (despite the fact that Arabs have been doing the sport horse thing for years) so I feel it will take some time to get things going in a way that will more benefit the breed as a sport horse.
