warmblood & arab crosses - good idea or bad? (warning LONG!)

[chemteach]

I agree with allanglos

@allanglos

[QUOTE=tri] I still believe that the bug-eyed sort is the more predominant type being bred and apparently others with much more experience in the arab world think so too.

QUOTE]

Who are these “others”?

Everyone here has tried to tell you that this “bug-eyed” type is not predominant. I have been showing/breeding arabians since 1973 and have multiple HOTY and National awards. Is that not “experience in the arab world…”? Do the arab owners responding here not seem credible to you?

The modern day arabian is very suitable for sport breeding. There is a small segment that is not and never was suited to this sort of thing, but they are in the minority (i.e. fine boned and often poorly conformed halter horses). Please don’t base your ideas of the usefulness of arabians on the assumption that the old style arabians are not the norm.

I have also been involved with Arabians and Half-Arabians since the early seventies. I bred four National Champion/Top Ten Main Ring performance horses (English Pleasure, Country Pleasure, Show Hack). I showed one Legion of Supreme Merit horse and two Legion of Honor performance horses. These horses are *Bask and Huckleberry Bey bred and very athletic.

I also feel the modern day Arabian is very suitable for Sport Horse breeding. Although I have not bred in quite a while, I would definitely choose a Warmblood stallion for my “Main Ring” hunter pleasure mares. I would not expect to market the offspring to a rider who aspired to do upper level dressage or Grand Prix jumping; I believe a pure Warmblood or Thoroughbred would be their choice. If I had those aspirations, that is what I would buy. However, it seems to me that the folks who are showing in the Arabian/Half-Arabian Sport Horse disciplines are really enjoying their horses and for the most part can successfully show without having to be in an expensive professional program.

Remember, AHW and AHT are businesses; they print paid ads. They are not the Association’s publication.

Bashing Main Ring Arabians/Half-Arabians does nothing to further this discussion; the performance horses are athletes in their own disciplines.

I say kudos to Ancient Oaks and those of you breeding these crosses. I am sure you are producing beautiful athletic horses that will be enjoyed and HOLD UP. In all my years of breeding and showing Arabians and Half-Arabians, I never had a horse with navicular, bowed tendon, etc.

Please appreciate the beauty in all breeds. I am certainly enjoying researching and learning about the different breeds of Warmbloods and hope to buy a Warmblood or Warmblood Cross mare for my personal horse. Mare of course, because the “breeding disease” won’t stay in remission much longer!

[tri]

Ancient oaks if you can’t handle a civil discussion, you are free to go elsewhere. It seems you are the only one ranting. Btw, the title of this discussion is about crossing arabs, is it a good idea or bad. So that is what we are discussing.

Ok, maybe many of you aren’t in the hunter and jumper markets or competing at the higher levels but in this example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ks/ZOLTAAR.jpg

This horse is jumping FLAT. Head up, no use of back

And, again, with this example posted:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ribjumping.jpg

Now, these may be great individuals, they may have sired excellent offspring, they may have huge performance careers, they may have great merit in the histories of breeding BUT as an example of arab blood that doesn’t jump flat, they IN FACT are jumping with the back flat with the head up that is seen on so many arabs. Again, good arab blood is GOOD, IMHO, to add every few generations, but these are also some of the characteristics that have to be then bred out while leaving the good stuff in.

The photo of Showgun jumping at the bottem of the page is quite nice for the hunter rings, though I can’t see his whole body. He is using good technique of his head and neck (can’t see anymore) and you can see a huge difference in him as compared to the flat backed/high headed jump of the other 2.

Also, the inverted y horse which I assume is a half tb, half arab is exhibiting a nice style, again a huge difference in technique than the others.

Dawn, the bay stallion has quite a bit of substance, very nice, I wish I could see some video or at least pics of undersaddle work. Please share photos with us over the next 10 years as your program progresses.

So, it seems there are two schools of thought going on here as interpretations to the intent of this thread: The first, is adding more arab to the american wb breeding programs a good idea to help warmblood breeders acheive the typical warmblood breeding goals of producing horses for the OLYMPIC DICIPLINES? The second interpretation is adding more warmblood blood to arabs a good idea to help arab breeders breed a better arab sport horse to compete in the growing arab sport horse divisions and to create a better ammy arab (all arounder) sporthorse?

I believe there is the point of contention - point of view is from which “side” so to speak the poster is coming from.

[camohn]

I think the point of adding Arab blood to the WBs was always stated to intermittently be added to add refinement to the WBs every few generations when they got too heavy in type. Through selective use of certain Arabs. I have never heard anyone say every Arab is appropriate to cross with WBs any more than every WB is a good jumper. I can tell you about a big WB bred up the gazoo that jumps like Pe Pe Le Pew. The Jumping gene sure missed him. Is he just one horse? yes, the point is to evaluate each horse on it’s individual merits. YOu weigh the benefits. An Arab might in fact breed the size down a bit when you use it in the first couple generations to improve bone density and refinement. It’s a tradeoff certain breeders choose to live with in their long term plan. I think Otto, the RPSI inspector, put it very well at an inspection about 3 years ago. Someone commented that a TB mare that scored very well sure didn’t look WB in type to them. He said that the point is to bring certain desired traits (like forwardness and refinement or a better canter) into the WB program…not necessarily to find a TB that already looks like a WB.

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=tri]

Also, the inverted y horse which I assume is a half tb, half arab is exhibiting a nice style, again a huge difference in technique than the others.

QUOTE]

Thank you. Not sure which horse you are referring to. If it is a grey, that is a purebred. If a chestnut, they are anglo arabians (F1). The F2’s are just now getting started over fences (one in Hawaii, one in GA).

Just like to also mention that the size also is not sacrificed, even in the F1 generation. These anglos are all over 16.1H (the tallest so far being 17.1H). The F2 anglos are all 16.2-16.3H (75% thoroughbred).

[Tom_King]

Tamarillo is a horse that has excelled in the sport of eventing under rider William Fox-Pitt.

• Color: Bay

• Sex: Gelding

• Height: 16.2 hh

• Breed: Part Bred Arab

• Breeding: by Tarnik (PBA); out of Mellita (AA) by Master Spiritus (TB)

• Rider: William Fox-Pitt

• Breeder: The Hon. Finn and Mary Guinness

• Owner: The Hon. Mrs Mary Guinness

Born in 1992 Tamarillo was showed successfully as a young horse becoming Part Bred Champion at the annual National Arabian Horse Show in Malvern in 1995. He was first ridden by Diana Burgess through novice and intermediate levels. In 1999 the ride was taken over by William Fox-Pitt. Together they have represented Britain in international competitions since 2002. Tamarillo was withdrawn after the cross country phase of the Athens Olympics after chipping his stifle.

Achievements
2000

• Blarney CCI** - 1st
• Gatcombe Park BCI - 1st
• Blenheim Horse Trials CCI*** - 2nd

[B]2002[/B]

• Badminton Horse Trials CCI**** - 2nd
• Jerez De La Fronter (World Equestrian Games) CH**** - 14th and Team Bronze medal

[B]2004[/B]

• Badminton Horse Trials CCI**** - 1st
• Athens Olympics CH**** - Team Silver

[B]2005[/B]

• Badminton Horse Trials CCI**** - 2nd
• FEI Blenheim Petplan European Eventing Championships CH*** - Individual Silver and Team Gold Medals

[511]

My friend has a old style egyption that stands 16 hands (not weedy either) and he would (if he weren’t snipped) have made an excellent cross with a warmblood.
My first question was ‘what is he crossed with?’ I didn’t think full arabs came that large.
OTOH why bother crossing? Just find another huge arab.

[Dewers1100]

@copper1

I will say it again: once a big name breeder sells a horse that burns up the sport horse ring in one form or the other, they will start producing horses for jumping and dressage and they will put all those big bucks into the covers of the magazines and big articles will appear. AHW only profiles horses and breeders that advertise with them. Those ads are expensive so Joe Average Sport Horse person probably doesn’t have the advertising budget to put them in(yet!) so he doesn’t get a profile.
The sport horse rings is where the Arab world is headed and one of these days the powers that be will see it and start putting the spotlight that way. It is still new (despite the fact that Arabs have been doing the sport horse thing for years) so I feel it will take some time to get things going in a way that will more benefit the breed as a sport horse.

It’s a damn shame the AHA magazine of the association has to have such stiff prices on their ads. And for whoever said the other magazines were a business, well, the AHA magazine is a business also. You have to PAY to have your horse pictured in that magazine and the free stuff is mostly for the backyard owner which is fine, I have no problem with that but they could at least feature the winners of the big shows. I think the only thing they cover is Youth and US Nationals. And even that is a simple writeup and if you don’t pay, no ad on your horse. Exactly, the Powers that Be, that’s the key to this entire
situation.

[Dewers1100]

@tri

Ancient oaks if you can’t handle a civil discussion, you are free to go elsewhere. It seems you are the only one ranting. Btw, the title of this discussion is about crossing arabs, is it a good idea or bad. So that is what we are discussing.

Ok, maybe many of you aren’t in the hunter and jumper markets or competing at the higher levels but in this example:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ks/ZOLTAAR.jpg

This horse is jumping FLAT. Head up, no use of back

And, again, with this example posted:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ribjumping.jpg

Now, these may be great individuals, they may have sired excellent offspring, they may have huge performance careers, they may have great merit in the histories of breeding BUT as an example of arab blood that doesn’t jump flat, they IN FACT are jumping with the back flat with the head up that is seen on so many arabs. Again, good arab blood is GOOD, IMHO, to add every few generations, but these are also some of the characteristics that have to be then bred out while leaving the good stuff in.

The photo of Showgun jumping at the bottem of the page is quite nice for the hunter rings, though I can’t see his whole body. He is using good technique of his head and neck (can’t see anymore) and you can see a huge difference in him as compared to the flat backed/high headed jump of the other 2.

Also, the inverted y horse which I assume is a half tb, half arab is exhibiting a nice style, again a huge difference in technique than the others.

Dawn, the bay stallion has quite a bit of substance, very nice, I wish I could see some video or at least pics of undersaddle work. Please share photos with us over the next 10 years as your program progresses.

So, it seems there are two schools of thought going on here as interpretations to the intent of this thread: The first, is adding more arab to the american wb breeding programs a good idea to help warmblood breeders acheive the typical warmblood breeding goals of producing horses for the OLYMPIC DICIPLINES? The second interpretation is adding more warmblood blood to arabs a good idea to help arab breeders breed a better arab sport horse to compete in the growing arab sport horse divisions and to create a better ammy arab (all arounder) sporthorse?

I believe there is the point of contention - point of view is from which “side” so to speak the poster is coming from.

Showgun is beautifully ridden by a pro, Kristen Hardin, who came from the open jumper world. Her profile stated that he was the first Arabian she took into training. And he’s been bred to her WB Champion mare. This horse and rider are hard to beat on the Hunter Arabian ciruit. In fact, has he ever been beated? Great horse, great rider.

Is it possible that Arab’s only jump flat over small tiny fences? I’m guessing here, so don’t jump down my throat. How can you clear a 3’6" jumping flat? Would that not bring a rail down? What I noticed about the Russian Roulett jumper was his rear drive. I don’t know the correct terms to use but legs snapped tight on take off, basclue over with back legs so high over the fence, I could see his shoes from the stands. Is that a wrong way to jump? I don’t know. The stands at Scottsdale were full that day and I’m only saying what the buzz was. He jumps like a warmblood. I’ve not seen some of the other horses linked on this page so I can compare but it’s a known fact that the Russian/Polish/CMK lines are the best athlete’s in the Arab world. Dressage, Jumping, Hunters, Park Horse, and so on. All disiplines that need good movement and strong rear drive. If I were going to breed a WB to an Arab, I would go with the Russian/Polish lines.

adding to say: My horses are Polish/Russian mix and somwhat related to the Day Dream Arabian horses thru
Kaiyoum. Kaiyoum’s only misfortune was to be pitted against Muscat. I believe he usually went reserve to Muscat. Great great horse Kaiyoum was, but Muscat was in the way at all the shows.

Adding: How fun to see the grandget of two of the most famous halter horses of the 80’s,
Muscat and Kaiyoum = Showgun and Russian Roulett at the top of their disiplines.

[Dewers1100]

I can’t get these pictures to load??? What am I doing wrong?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ks/ZOLTAAR.jpg

This horse is jumping FLAT. Head up, no use of back

And, again, with this example posted:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v4...ribjumping.jpg

[Waterwitch]

@Tom King

Tamarillo is a horse that has excelled in the sport of eventing

Rolex winner Winsome Adante’s 2nd dam is by the Anglo Arab (75% Arab) stallion Carbrooke Surprise, whose Arab maternal grand sire is also grand sire to advanced eventer Mill Law.

[Dewers1100]

[QUOTE=Tom King]
Tamarillo is a horse that has excelled in the sport of eventing under rider William Fox-Pitt.

• Color: Bay

• Sex: Gelding

• Height: 16.2 hh

• Breed: Part Bred Arab

[LIST]

The link to the breed has been blocked:confused: Why am I having so many problems getting links to open!

[allanglos]

[QUOTE=Dewers1100]
Showgun is beautifully ridden by a pro, Kristen Hardin, who came from the open jumper world. This horse and rider are hard to beat on the Hunter Arabian ciruit. In fact, has he ever been beated? Great horse, great rider.
QUOTE]

Showgun was Reserve Champion last year at Sport Horse Nationals.

[Dewers1100]

@allanglos

[QUOTE=Dewers1100]Showgun is beautifully ridden by a pro, Kristen Hardin, who came from the open jumper world. This horse and rider are hard to beat on the Hunter Arabian ciruit. In fact, has he ever been beated? Great horse, great rider.
QUOTE]

Showgun was Reserve Champion last year at Sport Horse Nationals.

I just took a look at his ad in the Times and it does say, The Top Winning Arabian Sport Horse with 10 Championships & Reserves. Sorry, I missed the reserve part. Not to change the subject but everyone claims an Arabian can’t win in those big open all breed shows in Hunters but the World states he’s been a consistent winner on the open hunter circuit in California. Day Dream Arabians needs to put up some win photo’s from the open shows so people can see for themselves. I really do like this horse.

[Dewers1100]

@Waterwitch

Rolex winner Winsome Adante’s 2nd dam is by the Anglo Arab (75% Arab) stallion Carbrooke Surprise, whose Arab maternal grand sire is also grand sire to advanced eventer Mill Law.

Doesn’t this horse have an Olympic medal? I don’t remember which one but I remember this horse from the games.

[tri]

Looks like people are taking down the links that they originally set up.

[Tom_King]

I just copied and pasted the stuff about Tamarillo from some quick Google search I did. I was surprised that they showed up looking like links but only had a couple of minutes on here this morning. I did a google search for “Tamarillo eventing” and all sorts of things came up but the first few were slow to open so I just grabbed that one. No agenda on the links.

[tri]

I was referring to the photobucket links not the ones on Tamarillo.

[mairzeadoats]

@tri

Looks like people are taking down the links that they originally set up.

I’ve been having trouble logging in here all day today until now. I don’t know if they were doing an upgrade or having technical problems, but that can sometimes cause posted links to disappear.

Tri, I’m not sure what your purpose has been in consistently bashing the arabian breed with generalized, stereotypical statements, but it certainly has gotten me thinking hard.

I’ve spent the last 7 years looking for the right warmblood for me, and recently given up. I can’t begin to tell you how many way overpriced, very, very flawed warmbloods I’ve seen. One very large, very well known hanoverian breeder told me point blank that all the horses I was planning to travel to look at (including those in her own barn sired by her own FEI stallions) were just "pretty horses; not FEI prospects). It left me wondering how many (or how few) make it past the lower levels of dressage, never mind to the highest levels.

In the meantime, I’ve spent the last 17 years with an arab that I rescued from an “A” circuit breeder that went under in the early 80s. He was exactly the kind of arab you are talking about. Overly refined, overly hot, ruined by the halter ring, his tail gingered and, based certain behavior he exhibited when I first got him, possibly cattle-prodded. He wasn’t considered top-notch, maybe because he didn’t get the tabletop croup; instead he ended up with a nice slopey hip.

But what’s amazing is, despite his flaws, how athletic he is – he knows all the movements through Prix St. George, has a passage to die for, was schooling 2-tempis and was introduced to changes a tempi. Last year, at the grand young age of 20, we started playing with half-steps now and then.

And now that he’s in my backyard and fed and turned out they way he needs, the temperament is much quieted down. A belly full of hay or grass does wonders.

So last evening I spent a couple hours on line looking for a young arab mare. I focussed on Polish, CMK and Crabbet lines, but mostly on a certain type of build. In a very short time, I’ve come up 8 individuals that look to have super builds, all but one 15.2+, and all look to have super movement. Oh, and one breeder with at least half a dozen available, bring my total in one evening’s search to over a dozen of the type I’m looking for. None of which, btw, likely to cost anything close to a mediocre warmblood!

So not only have you not convinced me that arabs are horrible horses, you’ve convinced me that maybe that’s the direction I’m meant to go in…

So I thank you for your bigotry. You annoyed me enough to find my direction.

[system]

@tri

ok, I looked. And I am confused. What exactly are you guys talking about - the purebred arab (like in the weblinks provided) or the warmblood/arab F1 generation?

This is one of the links provided and it is everything that I think is hideous about arabs http://cmkarabians.com/newalbion/stallions/

Also, most of the pics in most of the weblinks provided show purebred arabs in the typical arab stance loose in a ring or pasture somewhere. There were a couple dressage pics (so so quality, yes they can get on the bit so can most horses) and there were a few jumping photos. The jumping photos showed mostly a flat backed jump (should I say typical for arabs, cringe & flame suit on) with knees even (good) but mostly at just horizontal to the ground (the bare minimum required to compete at anything other than the local level, certainly not super competitive).

I did see where some of those farms talk about crossing them with some warmbloods but saw little in the way of resulting offspring pics.

So if it is your intent to educate me and others on the merit of the F1, please provide links and evidence that depict that. And please, PLEASE don’t tell me that some F1 cross received a good inspection score at some warmblood inspection - that is NOT NOT PERFORMANCE! sorry but that is one of my pet peeves.

As I have already stated, I agree that some arab blood is good - every 6 generations or so and it has to be the right arab. They are used to add bone, then you have to get rid of the small size, flagging tail, too weird of a face (arabs can give you a pretty head as soon as you water down that caricature horse head attribute). And I agree that a wb cross on a smaller breed to create a ammy horse for smaller people has some merit, but can you provide something that shows that these horses are going to the next big thing in the big dressage, hunter and jumper rings? Aside from a small handful of outstanding individuals, I don’t see the F1 providing it. Whereas, the warmblood and the Wb/tb F1 crosses are already out there doing it.

TRI Quote
"This is one of the links provided and it is everything that I think is hideous about arabs http://cmkarabians.com/newalbion/stallions/ "

Okay I am not at all amused by this. Micheal Bowling is one of the most knowledgeable breeders and has done a tremendous job. If I am not mistaken one of the top finalists of the Tavis was a horse sired by one of his stallions. You clearly did not look at or read what was written on his website to pick this as your example.

How can you or anyone else fault an Arabian for characteristics which are part of the breed such as high tail carriage, size, or a pretty head? Honestly these are only a very small part of the Arabian. Have you honestly gone out somewhere that was not on a string of highly promoted show barns and really spent any time with a Arabian?

Yes I love the beauty of the Arab, but even more then that I cherish the loyalty and commitment to their owners and somewhat affectionate dispositions which make them a joy to be around. I enjoy their spirit and and absolutely thank god everyday from their extreme intelligence and kindness towards children.

Here is hopefully a bunch of links from the Fotki site of Davenports working from Hanad jumping rope in yesteryear’s to Artemisa cf of present in endurance. I hope these links work for everyone.

Anchorage top ten dressage in 1st & 2cnd training level
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#anchorage-1

Artemisia CF
ARTEMISA CF (MV Reflection x Artema by Tripoli) chestnut mare
2005 AERC SW Region Champion LD Endurance Horse; 2005 AERC SW Region LD Reserve Champion Best Condition; 2005 Arabian Horse Distance Riding Assn LD Champion; 2003 Arabian Horse Distance Riding Assn Top 10 LD Mileage Horse. She was the only horse to finish all 6 days of the 2005 Ft. Stanton LD Endurance Rides (210 miles total)and received the overall LD Best Condition Horse Award.

http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#artemisia_cf-1

Brigade cf
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#brigadecf

Hanad jumping rope
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#hanad-2

http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#hanad-3

Janan Abinoam
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#janan_abinoam-1
Mystic uf going over a jump
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#mysticuf87bs

Plantagnet
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#plantagnet

Pompey going over a jump
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#pompey

Portico jumping/eventing
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#portico_c

http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#porticoa

http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#porticob

Sir
http://public.fotki.com/hypoint/arabians/arabian_album_davenport/photo#sir-2

[allanglos]

Here are some sport arabs:

Purebred stallion. CMK/Spanish bred.