What is killing recognized dressage shows?

[Mersidoats]

@Amberley

People are broke right now, really really broke. Young people with good jobs can’t even afford rent and food much less horses. I know lots of 20-somethings who are desperately trying to stay in horses and it doesn’t look good for most of them.

I’m a mid-30s SINK and the above quote resonates with me. I cannot afford to the $700 bill to go show two classes at a recognized show more than 2-3 times a year. And that is when I save every penny (literally, jars of change) and forgo vacations, new clothes, dinners out, etc. I have a job that barely gets over 6 figures, but board, mortgage, car payment, student loans all eat into that pretty quickly. And I live in a modest house, drive a used car, one horse is on pasture board and the other is in stall board - both at a no-frills facility. I bought my horses myself, and I could probably show more if I sold one. But which one?

I’m not complaining - I have two lovely horses and I’m learning so much as I work them up the levels…but showing is a budget breaker. It’s the first thing to go when I just don’t have the cash and it’s the last thing I spend money on when I do have extra cash (because owning a house means things break and you have to fix them).

What I want to know is how a schooling show can charge $60 for a stall for the weekend, and then a recognized show charges $125, and then regionals charges $350 and makes it MANDATORY - all at the same facility. Da **** is going on there?!

[mvp]

@barnesthenoble

I stopped showing due to a horse injury, then life getting in the way. I kept volunteering but let my memberships lapse.

I stopped volunteering (mainly scribing, but I would take whatever spot needed filling) after multiple sour experiences. It didn’t make any sense for me to keep volunteering when I would leave the show exhausted and feeling crappy about myself, my horses, and the sport. I had multiple eye-opening conversations with judges where they raved about the improved quality of horses vs 20 years ago and would make less-than-pleasant comments about off-breed horses. Never outright mean, but it was simply clear that they were not enjoying judging the plainer horses, and the scores reflected it. The fancy moving WBs got forgiven for mistakes that nailed other horses. The final straw for me was a conversation over lunch where two judges and an L candidate were discussing the breeding and showing trends, and one lamented the folks who keep “trying to make it work with crappy OTTBs and the like, when there is so much better quality to be had now.” I wish I was joking or making this up. I scribed the rest of the show and asked the show manager not to contact me again, and have not volunteered for any show since. Previously I was happy to volunteer my entire weekend 6-8 times a year for various shows. I didn’t care about gifts (lunch was always nice when offered, but I was fine bringing my own) or gratitude or whatever. But I was just done after that experience.

As an OTTB owner and lover, I just don’t see a place for myself or my horses in recognized dressage. I had no delusions about winning, and had long-since accepted that I’d be riding against myself, not for a ribbon. But it no longer feels like I would even stand a chance of getting a respectable score for the test I put in, let alone that some of my medal scores would even be attainable on the horses I ride. The cost is too high and the footing too unequal to be worth my time and not insubstantial expense. I’d rather spend the money on lessons, clinics, and other horse activities like working equitation, trail trials, etc. I still enjoy watching some of the international dressage competition, but it just feels like the sport has moved past a point where riders like me are valued.

Damn, I wish you hadn’t written that and been so frank. That’s because you just wrote what I haven’t admitted to myself. And I never thought I would be done with horse showing. I grew up poor, working for everyone and an undeservedly-snotty elitist: I was a big fan of buying the very best quality horse you could (and for me that wasn’t much, but I did breed myself a WB). Then, you trained and showed that horse to the best of your ability. If that was a bit DIY, that’s fine, but do the best you could and aspire to more and better.

Now, in my mid-50s, I own an Arabian/WB cross who has told me that I don’t ride as well as I think I do for my 45 years in the saddle, lol. She is smart, unreasonably sound, very sensitive, doesn’t get tired, never quits trying. I now see why people adore the Arabian breed (some bad biomechanics not withstanding). This mare has also made me really not want the WB brain. I mean, I want the conformation and gaits, but am I willing to put up with the rest of the package?

Having grown up poor, worked hard and usually been the scholarship kid, I am constitutionally not set up to pay to show and lose or be degraded because I didn’t write a big-enough check for the better-moving (but less sound, worse-work ethic-ed WB) in the first place. I mean, if my shitty scores were determined when I bought my horse, why not just enjoy learning to ride her well? I can spend more money on lessons and less money on shows.

And sometimes I think about defecting from the discipline altogether. Maybe I’d be happier learning how to make up a bridle horse instead? I mean, if you think you are a good rider, try making up a hackamore horse that will do all the stuff you want, with all the correct self-carriage, requiring of you being very light with your aids… but without the rather oppressive bitting philosophy that’s built into dressage. Why isn’t that a great riding/horsemanship mountain to climb that would be just as much fun and just has hard as making up a Grand Prix horse?

Truly, I never thought I wouldn’t want to horse show. But I remember when horses were judged against an ideal so that if you had the “crappy” built horse, the judge rewarded him if he were using his body to the utmost. Not only do I think that horse-centric value is rewarded in Competitive Dressage today, but I’m not sure it’s rewarded anymore in horse showing. You can, however, find bridle horse clinicians and groups that provide help and nice weekends of learning and hanging out if you look for them.

[MsM]

I am a bit surprised at the posts stating that they were judged more fairly on their non-WB horses years ago. My experience has been a bit different.

I am old, so I go back to the late 1970s when dressage shows stated showing up on my radar. At the smaller schooling shows there were lots of different horses and riders trying out dressage. Many were under the illusion that if their horse could WTC they were ready. Many were sorely disappointed and either learned or gave up on dressage! Flashy gaits werent much of an issue since nobody there had them.

At the recognized shows, the “Warmblood Invasion” was evident. Lots of ponderous old-style WBs, often with thin girls riding and being yelled at by a man with an accent! Judges appeared impressed. Dr. Max Gahwyler started calling for changes so that the lower levels don’t reward gaits over training. Those of us riding other breeds would hear from trainers and other riders that we needed a 17H WB if we were serious about dressage.

The WBs started trickling down to the local schooling shows (of course not the best ones). Too many of the young judges were overawed by the big steps and overlooked training issues. I learned to try to show before more experienced judges.

The WBs became more refined over time even as some showed excessive front leg movement. It took some years, but baroque horses (PRE, Morgans etc) started to gain more acceptance. I see more diversity in breed and type at recognized shows than I did 10-15 years ago.

I havent shown recognized in years. Money is the main reason. All the memberships and the additional fees greatly increase the cost. I think many in the non-wealthy horse community have been squeezed out by economic pressure. And the closer reconized shows do not offer Opportunity classes.

The local GMOs are feeling the pinch but are doing better. Honestly it is the eventing people that are keeping things going.

[Scribbler]

If the thread is what’s killing recognized dressage shows, do you find you have healthy unrecognized dressage show series in your area that provide a good experience, qualified judges and much lower costs? We do, we have two series that are very well subscribed, one in a very very nice facility. I’m not sure that for most ammies it makes sense to pay all the fees to show training level or first level multiple times a year at recognized shows.

We have two (maybe 3, need to check) big show venues doing recognized dressage series. One venue runs gold (national) and bronze (regional) EC recognized shows concurrently. The gold is more expensive and much fewer entrants so it’s a good choice for pot hunters because if there are only two entrants in your class you are going to get a big ribbon. Even with a score of 48.

I think though the logistics of individual dressage tests means that having only 2 entrants in Training Level Gold or 2 entrants at PSG isn’t the disaster it is for a rail class. It’s really sad to see an undersubscribed breed show rail class with 2 or 3 entrants in a huge arena and the judge making a decision really quickly. Whereas lots of First Level entrants can keep a dressage judge busy even if there’s only one person trying PSG.

The unrecognized shows tend to First and Second level with the occasional person requesting a fourth or higher. They are very professionally run, and I think do year end high points. Because they fill up, competition is tight in First and Second. You will not get a ribbon for 49 points! You need 70s.

Is the scoring a bit slacker? I expect so, inevitably. But I expect by a matter of only a few points.

I wouldn’t even call these series “schooling shows” as they are run professionally and many folks are not using them just to prep for recognized shows.

I don’t know how many people just do the unrecognized shows, versus doing both. I don’t have access to entry lists or scores for the unrecognized series to do a comparison of names. Maybe I am wrong and there is more crossover.

Anyhow, I think a competent lower cost unrecognized series is a great option for many ammies (we don’t have medals here in Canada anyways, there was little buy-in, they were not of interest to coaches who are already EC certified, and the program was discontinued recently).

Just like I really don’t see the value in trailering down to California for a season to ride in 2 foot or 2 foot 6 hunter/ jumper at huge expense. I don’t really see the value in pouring huge sums of cash into competing at an entry level.

[pn]

Another Canadian here! I as well resent Equine Canada fees and the absolute 0 it offers to be a member. As well, we must pay a provincial membership to even be allowed to join EC. Entering the show world again after an over 15 year gap, I’m horrified at the expense of showing. We have an excellent facility in Central Ontario. Beautiful with great amenities, and the show itself is really well run, which I realize costs money.
As well, we have another, not so great venue with poor organization and management. Offers periodic shows that are good enough to get green horses and riders out for more mileage, yet the cost of their admin fees is higher than the class fees. That to me is greed, and takes away from the grass roots entry that COULD benefit from this type of show.

[Gardenhorse]

As an eventer who did recognized dressage for the first time last year, I was surprised that I (and my horse) needed USEF registration as well as USDF even at the lowest levels (in eventing you have to join USEA, but don’t have to join USEF until Modified and above). I understand they have the Opportunity classes where you don’t need memberships, but those don’t allow you to qualify for anything while eventing has year-end championships at the lowest levels without USEF registration. Also, in our region, for recognized dressage shows all of the venues charge a grounds fee if you don’t get stabling. Yet for recognized horse trials at the exact same venue we show off of our trailer with no extra fee. Does USDF require them to charge a grounds fee?

[lazaret]

I don’t believe there is a requirement for a grounds fee. They know people will pay it.

Showing off the trailer for a 1 day event is much more common than showing off the trailer for a couple dressage tests. Which I think is funny, because at Global people do it every single day and the only stalls are usually CDI horses.

[VodkaRedbullx2]

Every show has always charged me a grounds fee and it’s usually 35+ at a dressage show.

[netg]

@Bogey2

No one Volunteers anymore…schooling shows and recognized shows can’t run without help. Two of the recognized shows in my area said they could no longer run shows because they didn’t have enough help.

I’m hesitant to volunteer for GMO shows after our GMO made it very clear they cared more about cliques and kissing up/trying to seem impressive when scheduling for a Debbie McDonald symposium. I was rejected for it, and they ended up with a single rider in the symposium who was at a level at all relevant to me. They told other people they hadn’t had lower level applicants, which I know to be a lie given I applied. I just placed third in our region at 1st level, it’s not as if I was an incapable mess. I just wasn’t riding with a local trainer since mine passed last year… oh, yeah, and he was the one who had arranged for them to get Debbie scheduled. It left a bitter taste in my mouth given both the original promise they made to have me in the symposium since my trainer had been doing it as a clinic for his clients and intended to open it for others when he scheduled it originally. I have volunteered at every show I could for years. Now I’ll stick to volunteering for the independent show series and eventers, who seem to appreciate help more.

It’s funny I stated above that I was not in danger of having to decide if I wanted to go to Nationals, then this pops up when I just had one of the judges place me such I would have received an automatic invitation if the other judge had agreed on placing. I bought my horse about a month and a half after that post, unexpectedly - had always wanted her since she was born and known she should be out of my price range, but an offhand comment was taken seriously and we worked something out.

I agree with SO many comments here. It annoys me that with my good mover, I can score 15-20% better in a test I feel is somewhat insufficient than I would have in the equivalent with my older mare. All the fees are insane. And now, venues have gotten far more expensive. With real estate prices increasing and more expenses, facilities are doubling their fees and making it harder to run shows, too. We’ve lost several local shows since this thread, but the independent non-GMO shows seem to be doing the best.

[SBrentnall]

Here in LA, one of our most prolific venues charges $45 per day haul-in fee. Other charges:

• $45 per day schooling fee on non-show days (no more hauling in the night before and having a quick warmup when you arrive)
• $45 non-compete fee ( so if you throw a greenie in the trailer for the experience of a show atmosphere, be prepared to pay $90)
• $55 office fee
• $10 EMT fee

Stabling is $60 for a day stall, $120 for an overnight stall, $125 for a tack stall and $185 for a weekend stall. Shavings are $16 per bag.

I just added it up, and the minimum I can get away with is $212, if I haul in for a single day and ride one testAnd that assumes I have all my memberships up to date and don’t have to pay any non-member fees.

[barnesthenoble]

I wish I hadn’t felt it, truly. For a long time, going up the levels and pursuing my medals was a driving motivator for me. It was one of those “lifetime” goals that I wanted to achieve. I am young enough that it could still, theoretically, be something I could manage, if I bought the right horse, got lucky enough it stayed sound, got lucky enough it wanted to play the game, etc. etc. etc.

At the end of the day, I will likely never have the budget to drop $50k+ or really even $25k+ on a horse, so if I want a WB I will likely have to buy as a foal for prices that I still find eye-watering considering the level of risk. Then it’s a gamble of whether it survives in one piece to the age of four, then whether it is rideable, and whether I like riding it, and whether it wants to do the dressage game. Then it’s a matter of keeping it sound and myself intact and managing to progress up the levels in a reasonable timeline–and I’m not likely to ever want to keep a horse in a program, I like to do the riding myself, plus I don’t know if $2k+ per month on training board will ever be in the cards.

This is all assuming prices don’t skyrocket further, hay prices don’t climb even further, boarding barns that don’t require full training are still available, and/or that I ever have a chance to buy a piece of property (not holding my breath but still keeping the delusion alive for now).

And that’s without factoring in my general dislike of warmblood temperament and demeanor. I am a TB and Arab person to the core. I love the ride, the brain, the inquisitiveness, the versatility. I don’t want a horse that only really enjoys being in a sandbox. I want to train dressage, but a lot of the schooling I do is on the trail. I love horse camping, and riding in the back country, and occasionally popping over fences. I enjoy the hell out of obstacle playdays. Sometimes even working a cow. I have done, and LOVED, these activities with my TBs. Some took to different aspects more than others but all have been game as f*** and I’d trust them with my life on the trail. The warmbloods I’ve known, well…I won’t go on any trails that require me to have some faith in the horse to make good choices and keep us safe. Not that I’m sure there aren’t WBs who would make excellent trail horses–I just haven’t met them, and I have a hard time swallowing the purchase price and risk of a dressage-bred baby to find out if the one I have wants to play my type of ball.

I don’t care enough about my medals to try and buy and sell horses until I find the right fit. I don’t want to lease horses just to get them done. The horses are my partners and my passion separate from my enjoyment of sport. As I mentioned before, I don’t need to win. It’s nice to feel like I have a chance, but that’s not my why. But after enough experiences in the scribe seat to feel like I would be seen as foolish for even showing up on my cute but by no means fancy TBs, presenting the best we can on that day…why? Why bother?

I continue to grapple with this. It breaks my heart. It’s gutted one of my overarching lifetime “horse” goals. But I am also exploring working equitation, and trail trials, and obstacle challenges, and yes, maybe even bridle horse work. There are SO many fascinating aspects to horsemanship and avenues to pursue outside of competitive dressage. But I am still really goddamn sad about walking away from it.

[phoenixrises]

@Amberley

Western dressage and working equitation do a much better job of filling the social aspect of showing and having horses, it’s grassroots, it’s all about learning and it’s fun. The clinics are fun, the coaches are encouraging and there is a community. People camp out and there are exhibitor parties and friendships are formed. Regular dressage used to have that (DASC amateur social hour I’m looking at you) but it’s going away.

I have to say if history shows us anything, it’ll get ruined in 10ish years or so as more money flows to it.

[Manni01]

It breaks my heart because I agree with everyone in this thread . My experiences as well

This weekend I showed at a recognized show at a nice location (indoor small ring) with a nice big warmup ring outside. The weather was beautiful (rain was predicted but that didn’t work )

I paid 18 Euro for my class which includes everything ( some little fees for whatever usually around 2 Euro) no haul in fee.

The show had classes up to 4 th level I showed 3rd.

There were 15 riders.
2 riders just came back from the German AA championships a Professional (15 times state champion) showed two horses there were 2 older AAs like myself and the rest were girls in their teens some just started to work to become pros.

Everybody rides against everybody. No Division between anything…
At least there is no dressage in my state so no professionals who want to sell their young horses to the US and need ribbons

Everybody knows everybody because we always have the same local judges and the same riders….
And for some reasons Germany is loosing entries as well. There are only very few older AA riders

for sure you can afford it but somehow it is not really easy to get a ribbon…… Juniors get promoted and get clinics alll the time and once they age out either they are successful, or they stop riding…

Every system has its ups and downs…

But it was a nice show and well managed.

Shows are usually hosted by the owner of a facility and there are no professional show facilities around…. this is probably the most professional facility we have in our state…. the owner has a shop for horse equipment and rents out his indoor for clinics, breed shows weddings and whatever you can imagine…

Oh and just wanted to add horses are affordable as well. I just bought a very very nice 3 year old who was backed by a great professional and has clean x-rays for 15.000. Sure I need to invest some riding time but then I will have a horse which can do anything I am able to train it to…

[PonyPenny]

Well at least you have the shows in Somis, CA. I am in Orange County and our local chapter decided to cancel the most recent and probably future shows due to lack of volunteers. Not like they asked for help or anything. So my option is either Somis, San Diego or Temecula. All are 90+ miles each way and with traffic at least a two hour drive each way. So that involves a hotel room, higher hauling cost (our gas is around $6.20/gal), etc. We have a wonderful show facility in our backyard, but no shows to go to.

[DownYonder]

One of our local GMOs is not holding its regular fall recognized competition this year. It was a long-standing show (for decades!) and was usually pretty well attended. The show also often included Region 3 Championships, which really helped swell the entries.

I am not sure why they decided to not hold it this year but I am guessing it is because Regionals are at WEC in Ocala this year and a National show no longer draws entries like it once did. There are a lot of factors at play - qualifying is over for this year, some competitors are planning on going to Regionals in Ocala, there have been many other shows in the area, and competitors may be tapped out financially, mentally, physically for the year. Add in the complications of finding volunteers - an ongoing struggle for the GMO - and concerns about “the bottom line” (a National show with a small entry is likely to lose money), and it probably made more sense to not hold the show this year.

I believe the GMO had decided to hold a schooling show at the facility on the dates normally reserved for the recognized show, but I heard through the grapevine that was also canceled just a few weeks ago. I also heard they are going to try to hold the recognized show next year even though Regionals will again be at WEC (or so I was told). That means the GMO will probably lose money but it has to hold a recognized show then or it will lose those dates on the USEF calendar.

It’s kind of sad because that show has been a fixture in this area since the 80’s, but it isn’t drawing entries like it once did. Even entries at recent Regionals haven’t been as robust because many serious competitors aren’t happy with the footing at the site (a government-owned facility). Improvements have been made to the footing in recent years, but it still isn’t up to snuff, esp. when compared to footing at other facilities within striking distance.

It will be interesting to see what happens next year.

[eponacelt]

@yaya

For me, it’s what is getting the good scores (the flashy, big movers).

But those horses are the ones who win at Training and First. Once you get past that, good training wins the day…at least that’s been my experience. A badly trained, badly ridden extravagant mover isn’t going to out score a well prepared, well ridden horse at 3rd level and above. I can attest to that, having taken my good, but not spectacular Welsh cob X to PSG and now being on the verge of making it to PSG with a nice, but not flashy KWPN mare. I think if you look past what is winning at the lower levels, you see a different picture.

[Mander]

@eponacelt

A badly trained, badly ridden extravagant mover isn’t going to out score a well prepared, well ridden horse at 3rd level and above.

But a well prepared, well ridden, extravagant mover will. And I see plenty of those at shows too.

[yaya]

@eponacelt

@yaya

For me, it’s what is getting the good scores (the flashy, big movers).

But those horses are the ones who win at Training and First. Once you get past that, good training wins the day…at least that’s been my experience. A badly trained, badly ridden extravagant mover isn’t going to out score a well prepared, well ridden horse at 3rd level and above. I can attest to that, having taken my good, but not spectacular Welsh cob X to PSG and now being on the verge of making it to PSG with a nice, but not flashy KWPN mare. I think if you look past what is winning at the lower levels, you see a different picture.

I haven’t shown below 4th in 15 years. I see the flashy, incorrect horses winning all the time at the higher levels. And although I got to GP with my not-flashy, 20-yr-old, old-style horse, I do not want to ride what I see in the ring now.

[Scribbler]

The more inherent gaits are weighted in the scoring, the more you will see this outcome. The more the extended trot is weighted versus collected moves, the more you will see this. And the more extended trots get judged on front end action, the more you see this.

Rubrics or score cards or per centages for grading assignments all have a big effect on the final score or grade.

[SBrentnall]

That’s awful! Is there any mechanism for the membership to complain to USDF?