Where are we to discuss *ok, below expectations* performance of US eventing?

[Lord_Helpus]

I think “abysmal” is a tad harsh, but we are definitely below International standards in dressage. And while events cannot be won on a dressage score, they certainly can be lost on a dressage score.

And we lost almost all chance of a medal in the dressage ring.

Yes, the order may change tomorrow, but it is unrealistic to think it will change drastically, especially with only 3 out of 5 scores counting.

To say that we had three riders go around clean is ingenuous. We didn’t have ANY riders go around with no penalties. And penalties are the name of the game.

Obviously, it could be done. Britain had 3 double clears. And, while I might be wrong (ALWAYS a possibility) I did not see any of our riders leave the starting box like a shot, nor ride between fences very aggressively. The riders who were double clear kept the pedal to the metal on every stride. As the good English announcer said, they kicked their horses away from every jump on the very first stride. And most of them had such a good eye for distance that they were able to keep coming forward to every jump.

At this level you make your own luck. After the first rotation was over and Karen went on course, she knew what it would take to be in under the time. And she wasn’t. That is not bad luck.

Yes, she (and all our others) might have had excuses. But there is no room for excuses at this level. We just were not up to the task in dressage and our x/c scores were not good enough to get us closer to the top.

I worry about tomorrow. We only have 3 riders with decent scores now. It is not the 3 top scores in each event that count. It is the top 3 riders on each team. Realistically, any horse with a stop on x/c will not make the top 3 on their respective teams of any team that is within medal range). Yes, a horse with no faults on x/c could have 16 faults and fall below a rider with a refusal But that won’t better the team’s final score.

PS: I love the grandmother/bicycle saying. I will have to start using it.

Best of luck to the Brits tomorrow. It would be fabulous for them to win in front of their home crowd.

[Lord_Helpus]

@subk;6467108

Well, if you were going to bet on a clean XC would you pick the horse and rider who had never completed a 4 star or the one who had not only not ever had a XC jumping penalty, but was also one of the only US horses to go clean at 2 different 4 stars last year?

Looking at the competiton records of the short listed horses Sinaid and Neville were the best bets we had for a clean XC today. All our team horses performed pretty much in line with their records today–including the disappointing ones. To not speculate on the possibles without making some reasonable speculations based on fact is kind of stupid–there is no learning curve to it. It would also be short sighted not to realize that when riding for a team score the ride of one member of the team DOES affect the way others ride. It is what makes CCIOs unique and interesting.

I am asking honestly, because I do not know: but based on their record in dressage, would Sinead have helped us there? THAT’s where we needed the help.

If she is a fabulous dressage rider, then, yes, it is too bad she was not chosen.

Now, Arthur can be in the top several at dressage. HE is the horse who would have possibly gotten us closer to medal contention.

[But, see "grandama and bicycle ", above]. We don’t know where in the order Sinead would have been placed. Too early and she might not have been aggressive enough to avoid TP. Too late in the order and she might have slipped and fallen due to bad footing. NO ONE can ass-u-me that she would have gone double clear based on past performance. There are far too many other variables.

[poltroon]

You guys are pretty rough.

I am thrilled to see the British doing so well - they have earned it. The home advantage is a big help when it means that the sponsors step up to get great horses to the riders and extra competition opportunities, as it’s clear has happened for them.

The reality is that the international standard is very high, and everyone brings their A game to the WEG and the Olympics, even more so than Badminton, Burghley, or Rolex. And it’s also true that great riders fail out at these competitions from all countries every year. Who would have expected both Fredericks to get in trouble?

I loved watching the riders go round - the course was gorgeous and there were many smooth, lovely rides. I think it was a good day for our sport, regardless of the US medal position.

I am sad for Will - that was just a heartbreaker for him, coulda woulda shoulda. But he’s not the only one who will be saying that tonight.

I hope the jog goes well for everyone tomorrow.

[Renascence]

Also, Allison Springer gets great dressage scores and was almost first at Rolex, and it would appear that her hard work had finally paid off with Arthur. Instead of them with their “baggage”, we sent a lot of new unproven pairs who had n’t had a chance to ever screw up yet at this level. There is a lot that is wrong with this selection picture.

[vineyridge]

So why does not the US lobby for elimination of the dressage coefficient? It devalues both of the jumping phases. Why should dressage count so much in the 21st century. It and short format have changed the very type of horse used. Personally I think it makes XC more unsafe, since the horses are less suited and get more tired. This course was only 3 seconds off the absolute minimum length for a 4* and so many of the horses were struggling at the end.

[RaeHughes]

US XC wasnt abysmal. Wasnt the best there but was certainly not the worst. Most of what I saw - coverage was UK based so I saw a lot of the GB riders go - was good steady riding over fences and country. It good have had more flair and one refusal was telegraphed - at least from my couch :).

I watched some of the US riders’ dressage and, to be frank, it isnt up to the standard now expected. I would have expected higher given the US’s recent performances internationally in (straight) dressage - the uplift in skill there doesnt seem to be transferring throug. (I will admit that it is really pleasing for a Kiwi, with the xc not being a true 4*, that 3 of our riders posted good to very good scores!)

What is gutting for NZ - Andrew Nicholson being held for 10 minutes in the dressage and being told that as he was about to go in! Despite him being quite prepared to ride as he has done on so many other occasions. So instead of his horse’s usually very good dressage performance, he was a little flat and it showed in his score. With a brillant ride XC - he deserved to be well up on where he is.

ETA: And as for the US lobbying to do away with the dressage coefficient, to be frank this would be a travesty. The object of eventing is to complete 3 (now) phases and still have a horse at the end. Originally, most horses were WBs - this is an European tradition used by the military. As the format changed (more than once) through the history, TBs became more common as they are easier to fitten and were more available. The changes in the format - all for safety - has brought the WBs back into contention. This will not stop a good TB - but that TB now (as with any other horse) has to be good in 3 phases not 2. After all, the dressage was added to test the training/obedience of a horse fit enough to complete a traditional endurance phase.

[vineyridge]

Arthur would never have made it around this course.

[poltroon]

One other thing is that it seems many horses were tense for the dressage, in that big exciting stadium. We are fortunate to now have the giant Rolex stadium to create some of that same atmosphere at home.

[Anne_FS]

I asked this on the other thread, but didn’t see a response - that xc thread was zooming along.

After the Olympics are over, can riders stay and re-ride that course? Is it open for training? How does that work?

[subk]

[QUOTE=Lord Helpus;6467119]
And we lost almost all chance of a medal in the dressage ring.[/QUOTE]
It will be interesting with–as you note–only 3 good scores to work with if you think that is a more overriding issue at the end of tomorrow or whether the lack of clean XC scores to work with won’t be even more of a points problem.

The first place horse may have scored in the 30s for dressage, but it will be a major shocker for everyone including Ingrid if she doesn’t add a couple rails to that score. Today you think she is a star because her dressage is great, but your view of her is not complete.

I do agree that our dressage is not up to a top international level. No question. The US has taken the position for the last decade that we need to improve (hope for better) XC on our good dressage horses instead of what the Britts do and improve the dressage on their good XC horses. Definition of insanity and all.

[ShearConvenience]

Abysmal is a pretty snarky way of putting it. I see a team who rode incredibly well today. Do we have some work to do to become more competitive in Dressage, apparently so, but this wasn’t a poor showing at all on the part of the US.

If we want to see a poor showing we can just look to the Russian rider (horse was Fabiy) who got an 80 in Dressage because the horse was above the bit 80% of the time.

[snoopy]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;6467167]
I asked this on the other thread, but didn’t see a response - that xc thread was zooming along.

After the Olympics are over, can riders stay and re-ride that course? Is it open for training? How does that work?[/QUOTE]

NO.

[subk]

[QUOTE=Anne FS;6467167]
After the Olympics are over, can riders stay and re-ride that course? Is it open for training? How does that work?[/QUOTE]
No. I would imagine the whole course will be dismantled and no one will ever ride it again. (I don’t think there are any plans for it toeven continue as an equestrian venue.)

Secondly, horses at this level don’t really school these type of fences to work on issues like a lower level horse would. They are more likely to go home and recreate questions with poles in a more controlled setting.

[FrittSkritt]

There’s no way Arthur would have survived that course. His brain would have exploded out of his ears by the moon fence.

Boyd was definitely pushing the pedal down with Otis. Neville might have made the time, he’s smaller and speedier than Otis. Remington would have struggled with it IMO.

Interesting that with the top 15 or so riders after XC, only two of them are TBs (Miners Frolic and Clifton Promise).

[Carried_Away]

I’m glad the OP has nothing else to say after starting this awful thread…from the looks of her other posts she’s a total DQ.

I for one am proud of our team, despite difficulties they did a great job and all of them came home safe & sound. Look at all the falls today! A few time penalties are nothing to make a big deal about, as other posters have said, it came down to having non-competitive dressage scores.

Tomorrow should be interesting!

[poltroon]

Our dressage scores weren’t top of the heap by rank, but part of the issue is that there are so many very good horses in the hunt here. The top 20 after dressage were separated by 6 points; the top 30 by 10; the top 40 by 13. There are some infinitessimal differences here making a very large difference in ranking.

To shine at the top of this requires amazing depth from both horse and rider, as it should.

I’m sure Mark Todd is kicking himself over that time penalty, too.

[joiedevie99]

No, the course will be dismantled as soon as the Olympics are over and it will be returned to a park. Some of the XC decorations (like the wooden animals) will remain as decorations at a children’s playground.

[atr]

AnneFS, they will be tearing that entire equestrian facility out as soon as the games are over. It is all temporary.

[subk]

[QUOTE=poltroon;6467206]
I’m sure Mark Todd is kicking himself over that time penalty, too.[/QUOTE]
I doubt it. He’s probably thanking his lucky stars he got a very tired and inexperienced horse home and didn’t take a header on the last fence that he puked over. Come the jog in the morning he might be wishing for a few more time penalties! I don’t think he left anything on the table and there wasn’t another second to squeeze out of that horse and still get around. I suspect he knows that and that’s why he’s Toddy and we’re not!

[Kadenz]

Abysmal? No. Embarrassing? No.

Fer cryin’ in the mud, our team is in FIFTH PLACE. And we’re behind powerhouse equestrian nations, and ahead of a couple of others.

The dressage scores could have been more stellar, true. For me, though, the heartbreaker is xc - it can all end with literally ONE foot placed wrong. See Clayton Fredericks’ fall for an example. I watched it live, and watched a replay, and I don’t think it was rider error - if so, it was a darn small error.