Who here has removed soy from their horse's diet?

Research

I don’t know whether any of the vets you are consulting are from Va Tech or not, but they have research studies on feed and have vet students whose thesis’ are equine nutrition, that might be an excellent resource on soy. Dr. Shea Porr, just one of the VT MARE Center vets/PhD’s, is a COTH BB member, who formerly worked with Buckeye. And yes, equinelaw, they have many fine research subjects, who graze happily on Kentucky Bluegrass fields 365 days of the year :slight_smile:

http://arecs.vaes.vt.edu/arec.cfm?webname=middleburg&section=home

cporr@vt.edu - Dr. Porr

Hay, pasture and all other the same, I fed oats with Dynamite vitamins before I switched to the RB.

Thanks, that was very interesting. :slight_smile:

Wow. Where can I buy some of that grass seed is its green 365 days a year?

I was not saying all research horse suffer, I was saying if you design a study to see at what levels something is harmful, then it will harm those research horses. By defination it has to:confused: Somewhere a research horse is loved and adored by a researcher just as much a private horse is loved and adored by private people. If you want that horse to suffer, there has to be enough evidence to warrent it.

Va Tech does look like a nice facility and during our many PM’d bitchfests amoung those of us with advanced degrees in equine science, nobody had ever gone there or had horror stories to tell. The lives of most research horses are not so nice.

However, Soy is a food. We do not test the safty of foods even for humans unless or until there is enough reason to. We just learn what is good for us and what is bad and avoid the bad things.

Certainly if enough people have problems and communicate those problems in high enough numbers that someone with FUNDING does a research project on it thats a good thing. So asking and talking about it is a good thing. But nobody has any DUTY to test the safety of feeds for horses or humans if its something that should reasonably be safe. Nobody likes to pay for research and everybody wants results.

Everybody wanted corn out of feeds so the market responded. A lot of good reseachers work for feed companies and they are not out to hurt your horses or make danergous feeds to save a few bucks. Thats insulting to people who earned degrees in the field and put their integrety into every feed they design. If the market wants something else they can ask for it with their $$$$$.

I buy feeds designed and approved by Kentucy Equine Research. They have funds and test all sorts of feeds. They do good stuides and they put Soy in my feed. I trust them. They get paid to test feeds so they do not have to rely on private funding and they are independant of any particualr feed manufactuer.

They may be wrong, thats always possible, but the one horse I feed has been fine before Soy was added to feeds and is fine after Soy too. To do a study just to see if Soy is safe for Spainish Mustangs? That must be grief talking.

Thomas, thanks for posting your horses’ diet. I wonder if my local feed store carries rolled barley…

No not grief and not just my horses either but I’ve heard of lots of others of all breeds that have had troubles. You won’t believe my pm inbox right now or how many emails I’ve gotten. I suggested that since it seems like my horses are more sensitive to it than some others and if someone wanted a group of them to study, they could be gotten inexpensively from the right place. I hardly expect every breed to be tested but I would expect new ingredients to be well tested on various types of horses before being added to all feeds.

I don’t agree that soy can be assumed safe. It has way too many negative research studies on it for that and way too many frightening statistics merely from people who have consumed it to just shrug it off as hysterics. It is also not an ingredient fed successfully in horses for centuries either like oats or corn…but rather something quite new if it’s only been used 30 years. That’s a drop in the bucket of time and if no one is looking for side effects or troubles, they can easily be blamed on other things.

As I said before several times now, if you are happy with how your one horse is doing, than don’t change anything because I said so or because anyone else did…but if you are having trouble you cannot explain any other way, consider that some ingredient in the feed might be a problem.

But you do expect it to be tested. Thats what I am saying–feeds are not tested and do not have to be. They can throw cardboard inthere and not test it as long as theoretacally carboard is safe and has been used for years with cattle.

I ma not disagreeing with you making a fuss. Sometimes, somewhere, somehow making a fuss might solve problems by bringing attention to them. I am just saying you seem to theink there is a “they” that does testing of ingredients and has a responsiblity to make sure they are safe.

There isn’t. Research studies are picked on a whim. Factors could be a students interest or a professors source of funding or a personal experience or even a post on COTH. What really gets research attention is $$$$$.

I have been an equine researcher. We had a total budget of $1,500. Not per year–just at all. We did one study on an enzyme that ha commercial applications and a company paid all the xpenses, but otherwise there was no $$$ to test anything–even if we agreed and wanted to know too.

Thats what Dr. Ralston was trying to tell you. Even if you are rigth and 100,000 other posters agree with you and have had the same experiences there is no $$ to do the research you need.

So you can either raise money or do negitive marketing like complain. If you get enough complaints feed manufactuers will realize there is a new market to be filled.

I have been on a personal mission to tell eberyone at every opertunity I have that I HATE ZIMECTRIN GOLD becuase I think it is dangerous and unsafe compared to the other brands. I did notice that inthe latest threads on wrmers this seems to be common knoledge now. Maybe one day the comapny will google their product to see why nobody buys it anymore, but your most powerful weapon is not to buy or sue products you do not like.

Even if research was done it would not mean much. Nobody reads it for 10 years and it just gathers dust on some self. They could prove Soy is harmful but that does not mean any manufatcuer has to take it out of feed. It just means people stop buying those products. There isn’t any agency to ban anything in animal feeds unless its clearly harmful and a mistake like chinese protein sources.:frowning:

http://jn.nutrition.org/cgi/content/full/136/7/2114S

DDB-there IS a study that finds a link to domesticated Spanish Mustangs as being predisposed to IR.They are right there with ponies and other breeds.

Here is one.I found it in my notes, by accident.:winkgrin:
I was looking up a completely different subjectl & lo & behold, there it was, much to my surprise! So , SOMEBODY has done research on Domesticated Spanish Mustangs. You may want to contact the vets listed in the article! It may very well help you!

The PN a great resource.Well worth the subscription to save horses!

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/83/13_suppl/E22/F2

Glycemic response of feedstuffs in horses.

I am in the Southeast and have endophyte-free fescue on land that was not previously used for pasture. (The land was previously forest, with small-time farming 10-20 years ago.) The fescue will stay green all winter here. In a very cold winter a lot of the tops will go dormant but it never goes dormant completely, except in very severe drought, and the horses eat it all year.

equinelaw…you make some good points. Perhaps it is too much to trust any feed company when they say the ingredients are safe for a horse to eat or “thoroughly tested” as some claim. I sure have learned a hard lesson to question everything and trust no one when it comes to horse feed.

I doubt complaining will help but my experience has gotten a lot of attention and it has given some folks enough information to connect my experience to a problem their horses is having also. That is the main reason I ever posted in the first place…not to get pity or start a war over it but to share what happened to my horses and hope I could help someone else.

ridenslide…thanks for posting that. I did find this reference:

Specific breeds that were suggested to have an increased risk of developing insulin resistance include pony breeds in general, Morgan Horses, domesticated Spanish mustangs, European warmbloods, and American saddlebreds (30,52); however, to the authors’ knowledge, there is insufficient epidemiologic information to confirm whether there is an increased susceptibility to laminitis in these breeds.

Is this what you were talking about? Yes, I agree, our breed are easy keepers and yes they can develop IR. I was aware of that and have always been careful to watch their weight which is how I became so tuned into something being off with them this summer.

My land laughs at Fescue and I don’t really want green grass in the winter. Thats the stuff they can founder on!:slight_smile:

I just read that article that was linked. They say the grass is dangerous if its short, long, mowed, not mowed. grazed too much, grazed too little, seedy, not seedy but stemmy, endophyted, fungasized, sun drenched, rain drenched, droughted, or green. All much too complicated and they said my TB can eat sugar and starch anyway:)

Oh brother. Why would they founder on winter grass, any more than they would on fall or spring grass? When they eat winter grass they’re eating a lot of dormant stuff along with green sprigs. When the grass goes dormant enough the grazing muzzle can even come off of my pony.

Yes, I agree, nothing is safe, and thank God one of my horses has a TB metabolism! What used to be such a bother in a boarding situation (my gelding’s mother would almost always lose a lot of weight and muscle in late winter, in spite of being well blanketed) is OK here.

Edited to add: fescue likes a LOT of moisture – otherwise Bermuda is a better choice in the Southeast. A lot of my land is in the floodplain and the fescue is very happy here. We put down seed for “Select” 9 years ago and it’s done very well since. Many of the new endophyte free forms of fescue now perform as well or better than the dreaded Kentucky 31, but all prefer moisture.

Now, here’s a prime example of how a little bit of information can be dangerous. Glycemic index and glycemic response are NOT the same thing. http://care.diabetesjournals.org/cgi/content/short/28/7/1839 Use google or wikipedia to find out more about the differences.

Two posters have linked articles about the “glycemic index” of cereal grains (ridenslide and LarkspurCO). One shows a calculated glycemic index of cereal grains while the other shows the actual insulin response post-consumption. There is a difference.

This is why I hesitate to post nutrition-related topics because first of all, there is so much information and misinformation out there, and secondly, people are so passionate about their feed beliefs and programs that they often are not willing consider possibilities.

I don’t proclaim to know a lot about feeding horses, but I know a little and I am always looking for better. I am NOT saying that soy is the devil. 10 years ago corn was the devil. Then it was starch. Pretty soon I think fat may emerge as satan. It’s always going to be something.

What I do know is that soybeans have not remained the same, even if they have been used for decades. Farmers are using genetically engineered seeds, round-up ready beans and all kinds of other techniques monkeying with mother nature to enhance crop yield. Plus, you have to consider the state of the soybean when it goes into the feed. Is it heavily processed? Is it mostly whole or have parts been removed through that processing? My horses are all old, and we know that chronic and repeated exposure to something can create an allergy (like snake venom collectors who develop an allergy after decades of exposure, or those in the medical field who develop a psyllium allergy). Maybe my geriatric herd has just gotten to that point. The only way to diagnose would be to remove everything from the diet and start adding back in little by little. One of mine struggles to maintain weight so I’m not going that route.

There are a lot of vairiables that could be causing my horses’ (and other posters horses’) issues. I don’t really expect anything to happen when I remove soy from the diet. To have an expectation would be biasing my already empirical study. I control my pasture, hay, water, deworming program, and exercise and grooming program to the best of my ability already. I am still having some issues I’d like to resolve, and so I am going to adjust one of the few remaining variables which is under my control (i.e., removing soy). If it works, super, if not, well, on to the next thing.

I guess the point of this post is that I really hope this does get people thinking, but when you use google scholar, or read a study or get information, really try to digest what it is saying. Population studies of Japan are not to me because I have no Japanese ancestry, nor have I ever lived in Japan. There are so many variables there, a population study tells me nothing. Even when you read a study on equine nutrition, consider the variables there…did they use TBs or draft horses, what was the sample size, what were they actually studying? Just like in politics, you can put a spin on anything, and not all studies would past muster under scrutiny. Also, people often want to extrapolate more from the study than was actually proven.

I am in the sand hills. No water to grow fescue. It grows down on the sides of the road Ok in the ditches, but not in the hills. I tried several years ago.

I could grow Rye in the winter, but I seriously have been scared off by so much new info. These threads do work, but they are really only useful when you do the research BEFORE you make any changes.

I was this (-) close to buying some RB last week. I read so many threads about how wonderful it was and my horse did need some more meat on his bones, but at the last minute I decided to up his regular feed instead. He gained about 100 lbs in a week. Needed more protein I guess, but balanced with all the other great stuff thats already in the feed bag.

So becuase of this thread I will not make that change. Or any change. It ain’t broke so I ain’t gonna fix it. I am glad I didn’t buy the RB now, so the thread has helped put a tiny bit more pressure on some company somewhere.

Rye is often a bust. The weather and rainfall has to be right at just the right time after sowing or it doesn’t start growing until May, which is useless. Like fescue, it likes a lot of moisture.

BTW, what did you learn about rye that scared you?

Have you thought about adding lysine to your horse’s diet?

One reason I’m not a fan of commercial animal foods is that some deficiencies may not show up for years. For instance, B12 deficiencies in humans can take years to show up, and either show up as anemia, or something as drastic as various sorts of nerve damage.

http://www.merck.com/mmhe/sec12/ch154/ch154h.html

Studies of animal feed don’t go on nearly long enough to catch things like this. The need for taurine in cat food was caught by a local vet almost by accident, not by the food companies or even by real researchers! Untold numbers of cats had died or gone blind because the need for taurine was not known.

Even now, cat food companies add copious amounts of grain to cat foods, even though it is well known cats can’t process grains and have no need for them. The pet food companies counter that they’ve modified the grains so that cats can metabolize them - but in the meantime, increasing numbers of cats are getting kidney disease. Connected? I don’t know. But I don’t feed my cats commercial catfood anymore.

I don’t think horses are made to eat soybeans, even modified so the horses can metabolize them. But it’s going to be near impossible to back up my opinion scientifically - because who has the money to study thousands of horses of many breeds over many years to see what diseases or deficiency states might pop up that can be traced to soybeans? So I use my common sense - horses haven’t eaten soybeans historically, and if I don’t feed them soybeans, I don’t have to worry about it.

Of course, there’s the ethical question of feeding horses people food. Not trying to get into a flame war here - I feed my kidney/pancreatitis cat homemade cat food made out of chicken, which much of the world couldn’t afford to eat. But I do wonder about it. It’s one thing to feed horses grass/hay, which isn’t useable as human food - it’s another to feed them human food…

http://tinyurl.com/5rfgbk

Liz

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On the endophyte free fescue- it quite often reverts back , so if you have broodies on it, make sure you have it tested!:yes:

http://jas.fass.org/cgi/content/full/82/9/2623/F1

Insulin response

[QUOTE=grayarabpony;3500785]
Rye is often a bust. The weather and rainfall has to be right at just the right time after sowing or it doesn’t start growing until May, which is useless. Like fescue, it likes a lot of moisture.

BTW, what did you learn about rye that scared you?

Have you thought about adding lysine to your horse’s diet?[/QUOTE]

The sugar content changes too much due to weather and sunlight. My horse is out 24/7. I don’t want him eating it during the daylight hours and with temps changing 50 degrees from dawn unitil dusk who knows how stressed the damn grass gets? He can’t founder on warm season grasses so I dont have to worry at all.

I added more diet to my horse’s diet:) No change, just more of the same. Old school! Same feed, just more of it. Its cheep. wonderful and has been carefully balanced for my horses’ needs by an expert who I trust.