Word to the Wise: Lesson Reminder for Everyone

[QUOTE=tuckawayfarm;8102135]
I try not to. I can still picture the toddler crying hysterically in the gate at Harrisburg after pinning second in the leadline. :frowning: First time I had ever seen leadline pinned as anything other than a “tie for first”.[/QUOTE]

I have a running joke amongst my siblings that my horse is booked for the Devon leadline class in 2016 and 2017 when my nieces and nephews will be in the right age range. Even found them some boots and jodpurs for a good price…the only one who is visiting this spring is unfortunately still too small at age 1. bummer.

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I give up.
what is an open trailer? and what is falling off a gear?

[QUOTE=french fry;8102080]
Also, I know that “why would the PO encourage the OP to come down with a trailer if she wasn’t sure she was going to give them the pony?” has been a sticking point, but I submit that contrary to the OP’s interpretation, the PO wasn’t saying “don’t send a commercial hauler, you must personally drive the pony home!” like an eccentric whacko, but rather she wanted the family to meet the pony first and suggested they bring a trailer in case it all worked out.

This is an EXTREMELY common thing to do in the horse world - go look at a horse that you’re ready to move quickly on and have the trailer with you in case it all works out.

If this is in fact what happened, it is not the PO’s fault that the OP mistook bringing a trailer for “the pony is DEFINITELY going home with you on that trailer.”[/QUOTE]

Do you know the PO and that is why you are staunchly defending her?

The OP mentioned more than once they were making preparations to make sure everything was set for the pony to come home with them including buying treats and grain.

As an experienced seller, the PO had plenty of time to set proper expectations to the newbie buyer and to let her know a decision won’t be made until after they arrive and spend some time with the pony.

But she didn’t. At least not that we know of.

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[QUOTE=INeed2WinTheLottery;8102403]
As an experienced seller, the PO had plenty of time to set proper expectations to the newbie buyer and to let her know a decision won’t be made until after they arrive and spend some time with the pony. [/QUOTE]

She DID, though!!!

HER
Thank you so much for the mail, we are looking forward to meet your family tomorrow and will talk about everything, have a safe trip!!!

ME
We will and look forward to tomorrow as well. I want to make sure everything is good though. Mainly because my husband is doing a lot to help me get everything ready and I want him to continue to be involved and helping us.
I know that everyone is excited about getting her and if it doesn’t work out, I won’t get another chance. I want my entire family to be involved in horses.

HER
I totally understand that and I think its great that he is so supportive. About the contract, I admit that we haven’t looked into any types of contract yet, so if it is ok with you we would write one tomorrow. I would like to make firm that we will get her back if anything goes wrong… You are not allowed to sell her. Thats really my most important point. By the way, do you have my adress?

OP, it sounds like PO had reservations from the get-go, the way she has written her replies to you make it sound like she was willing to have you and co meet the pony and see if you were a good match. not to devalue you or your son, but high-needs/special-needs people require a very rare pony indeed - consider that maybe the PO was willing to see if your son & his special needs were an okay fit with the pony, NOT that the pony was a good fit with your son.

an example, as i have volunteered with therapeutic programs and my sister was heavily involved with one. there was one child that had aspergers, that grew frustrated when he could not express himself as well as he articulated and composed his thoughts innately. he was clearly a very intelligent person, but there was a barrier in expressing himself. he was not a suitable candidate for one of the best lesson horses in the program, who was an unflappable type. why? the horse, more a lab than equine, was one of the most emotionally intelligent animals i ever met – the child needed a horse that was not emotionally sensitive, as this horse had a very difficult time understanding the child. the child needed a ‘dull’ horse, a horse who didn’t care how you were feeling that day.

you have to understand too, that not everyone understands special needs people. not everyone is going to be comfortable selling their horse to a special needs family. it may not be politically correct, and it may not feel fair, but it is the PO’s pony and she has every right to refuse the sale.

who knows? you’ve been vague with what your son’s handicap is exactly, but consider this. PO may have a history with pony, hypothetically, lets say pony is great in every aspect but occasionally may need a strong handler while grazing, or loading. every perfect pony has a flaw (our perfect pony NEVER ran out of energy). lets pretend your son has ALS or some other devastating muscle wasting disease - maybe PO could see that it was not a good match for the pony, maybe she was envisioning your poor son being taken advantage of once pony realized your son wasn’t going to assert himself physically to stop her.

i’ve BTDT. it sucks, but it’s horses. nothing is guaranteed and you need to realize even if you show with cash and a trailer in hand the deal isn’t done until that pony is in your stall, eating your hay, and you have a contract in your hands.

also, if i had been the PO, i would have been very off put by your language. you do not come across as crazy IMHO, but some of your language seems desperate and short-sighted. as a seller, i want to know my horse is getting the best possible home - the buyer’s language is very important to me and i would screen heavily any person that did not have a fully supportive SO/husband. JMO.

this may be a good lesson for YOU OP, to learn not to count on other people to always hold to their word. also, consider this a lesson in politics – saying one thing, meaning something else. i think, in a way, you may take things at face value too much – realize this, there is an entirely secondary and different language in the way we construct our sentences that fully articulates what we really, truly mean and feel. what words we elect to construct our sentences does not always come at face value - learn to read in between the lines, as it was very clear from PO’s diction that she was making no promises.

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[QUOTE=suz;8102396]
I give up.
what is an open trailer? and what is falling off a gear?[/QUOTE]

I think open trailer refers to the fact that it was open and available to transport said pony.

I doubt it was a trailer without a roof…although I have one of those and have transported horses in it…very short distances and in the 1970’s LOL

[QUOTE=Pennywell Bay;8102148]
OP-

  1. I’m sorry for both parties this did not work out.
  2. I see red flags in the communication that this was not a done deal, not having contract emailed to you prior is one.
  3. I am blessed to be a saintly pony owner, and I’m a mom. When I read your original “looking for a pony post”, I thought it would be a hard prescription to fill.
  4. Having a special needs child makes it more difficult. I’m sorry, there is no other way to say it.
  5. The pony may have been perfect for your kids, but perhaps PO did not feel it was a sustainable situation. I know my pony. He is pretty darn perfect. But- he’s a pony. Would his good behavior continue to tolerate a situation long term (spoken by someone who does not know your kids so I apologize if I am making assumptions. I am only going by my dealings w/ BIL who is special needs). Maybe the PO took a good look at the situation and did not think it was a good long term fit.
    6. I believe, though not palatable, it would have been best if you had received a straight answer as to why the pony was not going with you. I do not believe you were dealt with in a straight manner. Those conversations are difficult to have with people. It can be hard to say " I don’t think the pony is a good fit with your special needs child" without seeming like a jerk.
  6. Please take this as a (albiet painful and expensive) life lesson, tread slowly when making future “deals”. If something seems to good to be true, it most likely is.
  7. Slow down, read very carefully, listen carefully. I am a fast-paced person, as well. I think you missed some warning signs here. Perhaps because you have not been immersed in the horse world as long as some of us. Perhaps, in general, you miss this type of warnings in your nonhorse life. (not accusing).
  8. Good luck finding a pony. They are out there. Get a contract IN HAND next time. Someone is handing over their beloved pony to you. Please protect yourself, your children, and the PO in the future and plan very carefully. Realize it is as hard for them to turn their pony over to someone, as it was for you to leave empty handed.

I am truly sorry that this turned out to be such a mess but I think you can learn a very valuable life lesson here (not villifying anyone).

Everything happens for a reason. Your pony is out there![/QUOTE]

I brought this up earlier in this thread and I still don’t get it. According to the OP, the reason the PO decided not to let the pony leave was that the PO did not think the OP could afford the care she wanted for her pony.

Why is it so difficult to believe that is a straight answer?

I can see myself offering a pony to someone in the OP’s situation, who had openly admitted that funds were in short supply (as the OP has in various posts). I might think she meant not much budget right now to buy a pony and not consider she might be stretched so thin that it could affect the care of the pony. If I started to suspect this might be the case once I actually met the person, I don’t think I could send my pony 7 hours away, no matter how much I would loathe disappointing three young kids.

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Wow…17 pages to teach COTH a “lesson” that you shouldn’t celebrate until the ink is dry?

IMO, both sides made mistakes here.

The OP:
-In her enthusiasm and excitement, she didn’t read between the lines on the emails. More experienced horsepeople probably would have seen the whole meeting as just that: a meeting to see if the deal was a good fit for both sides. (I won’t fault the enthusiastic nature of her emails, because I’m naturally similar to that with a tendency to be energetic and excited about the prospect of good things.)
-Didn’t ask PO to clarify her position. A simple “We want to make sure things go smoothly, so we’d like terms in place beforehand and to clarify if this is a free long-term lease or a giveaway situation. How are you wanting to proceed?” might have cleared a lot up.
-Had on rose-colored glasses and jumped the gun by telling her kids anything more than that they were going to visit a pony but the pony wasn’t theirs.
-Was if nothing else, a bit naive in thinking that bringing a trailer automatically means they were going home with the pony. Lots of potential buyers/leasers bring a trailer if they’re traveling a long distance to save another trip, but trailer does not equal sale. What if the pony had proven to be too much for OP’s children to handle?
-Should have left her mare’s breeder out of it unless she was asked specifically for references and that was one she provided.
-Used the “IDK if my husband will ever let us do this if we don’t get this pony” card. If he’s not going to be on board with the process and knowing finding the right pony can take time, it might be time for a more serious family discussion of whether the commitment of another horse is right for the family as a whole right now.
-Hasn’t given the amount she was asked to pay for the additional equipment, which suggests that that wasn’t the actual hangup in the deal, or that money might be an issue.

The PO:
-Was frustratingly vague in the emails to OP. If she was viewing the meeting as more of an interview, she should have been more upfront about it. “We’d love you to come and bring the trailer so you can take Dobbin home if we all agree that this is the best situation for both your family and ours, but we do want to meet you and talk things over to make sure that everything will work out before we commit to a specific contract.” That might have made a difference in how OP explained things to her children and approached the meeting in the first place.
-If PO did indeed introduce the pony to OP’s kids as “your pony” (or even as telling them that it “might be your pony”) that was out of line until the deal was done and contract signed. Getting a kid’s hopes up and then dashing them is cruel. Kids don’t have the ability to read between the lines of the “might be if it works out” thing.
-If the tack sale was indeed a test to see if the family could afford things, she went about it wrong. It should have been presented to OP before they made the trip. “We’re particular about the fit of Dobbin’s tack and if we are to give her to you, we want you to purchase her saddle, bridle, and other items for $XXXX as part of the contract.” OP then had the option to negotiate or turn the whole offer down before driving 14 hours round trip. OP could have then purchased a more suitable one for her children later if necessary, but she’d have known about it beforehand.
-If the tack was NOT the reason PO decided not to send the pony with OP, she should have been upfront about it and explained her reasoning to the parents privately.

Had OP and PO communicated more effectively from the start, the drama could have been avoided. It sounds like OP is a bit naive about the horse industry and PO didn’t realize that and communicate appropriately. I don’t fault PO at all for wanting the best for her child’s pony, but she could have been more upfront. I don’t blame OP for getting excited, but she got wrapped up in it and heard what she wanted to hear. IMO, both sides contributed to the situation.

I honestly can’t believe how long this thread has gone on. None of us were there or directly involved in this situation. OP was perhaps a bit naive and starry eyed ahout how things would work out, but I find that a moot point compared to several posters who have an obvious superiority complex and who chomp at the bit for these threads. Humility is certainly lacking in the world and most definitely this thread.

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While I think what happened is unfortunate, we don’t really know the details of the transaction. Sure, we have what the OP “says” is the transcript, but methinks we are only getting one very jaded side of this drama.

But, I also have to say, I was easily able to figure out who the PO is. The link to the farm’s FB shows very nice horses, a very talented rider, and a gorgeous farm. However, that doesn’t make the PO a super classy person…and doesn’t mean that she didn’t make some serious mistakes here.

I think we aren’t ever going to get the whole story, even if the PO chimes in with her side. There’s a large part of me that thinks how classy the PO is to not contribute, to keep herself out of it. But there’s also a small part of me that wonders if the reason why she hasn’t joined in the conversation is because she doesn’t have any defense of her actions.

What I’m left with is the fact that I read 17 pages of this thread, ate 4 Dove Salted Caramel Dark Chocolates, and am still wondering WTF. :applause:

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:lol: spotted drafter, that’s a great summary

I imagine the PO has learned a lesson in all this also. I do think letting someone rent a trailer and make a drive that is 7 hours one way without being CRYSTAL CLEAR that they MAY not end up going home with the pony is not cool.

However, I also think posting private communication verbatim on a BB that both parties post on is unbelievably tacky.

It is very possible the OP misunderstood that this was not a done deal and that PO thought she had made that clear. It is also possible that the PO decided this was not a good home for the pony once she met the OP.

But, I hope she (PO) has learned not to let strangers go to the expense of renting a trailer and driving 7 hours one way unless she is sure they are a good home for the pony. You can require trainer references, vet references, farrier references, etc. Or simply state that your pony must stay within a 3 hour radius. That was one of my stipluations when leasing out my very nice older mare. I wanted to be sure I could physically go check on her as often as I felt necessary without it being a burden for me to do so.

Edited to add: I also think it is very possible that the other side of the story sounds VERY different than what has been presented in the OP. I stand by the comment that posting private e-mail and PM’s is truly and extremely tacky. And based on that fact alone, I would never even SELL a pony or horse to the OP. I would certainly never want my private communications made public in such a manner.

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[QUOTE=inca;8102728]
I imagine the PO has learned a lesson in all this also. I do think letting someone rent a trailer and make a drive that is 7 hours one way without being CRYSTAL CLEAR that they MAY not end up going home with the pony is not cool.

However, I also think posting private communication verbatim on a BB that both parties post on is unbelievably tacky.

It is very possible the OP misunderstood that this was not a done deal and that PO thought she had made that clear. It is also possible that the PO decided this was not a good home for the pony once she met the OP.

But, I hope she (PO) has learned not to let strangers go to the expense of renting a trailer and driving 7 hours one way unless she is sure they are a good home for the pony. You can require trainer references, vet references, farrier references, etc. Or simply state that your pony must stay within a 3 hour radius. That was one of my stipluations when leasing out my very nice older mare. I wanted to be sure I could physically go check on her as often as I felt necessary without it being a burden for me to do so.

Edited to add: I also think it is very possible that the other side of the story sounds VERY different than what has been presented in the OP. I stand by the comment that posting private e-mail and PM’s is truly and extremely tacky. And based on that fact alone, I would never even SELL a pony or horse to the OP. I would certainly never want my private communications made public in such a manner.[/QUOTE]

The last time I recall that happening on COTH, the mods removed all the references to personal details that came from a single user who posted information about several people, including their names in real life that they were able to dig up.

I’m just going to say that this thread is getting an obsessive number of views from me - just because I want to see if the PO hops on the crazy train here.

[QUOTE=ybiaw;8102423]
She DID, though!!!

HER
Thank you so much for the mail, we are looking forward to meet your family tomorrow and will talk about everything, have a safe trip!!!

ME
We will and look forward to tomorrow as well. I want to make sure everything is good though. Mainly because my husband is doing a lot to help me get everything ready and I want him to continue to be involved and helping us.
I know that everyone is excited about getting her and if it doesn’t work out, I won’t get another chance. I want my entire family to be involved in horses.

HER
I totally understand that and I think its great that he is so supportive. About the contract, I admit that we haven’t looked into any types of contract yet, so if it is ok with you we would write one tomorrow. I would like to make firm that we will get her back if anything goes wrong… You are not allowed to sell her. Thats really my most important point. By the way, do you have my adress?[/QUOTE]

That’s…not setting proper expectations. That’s being vague and polite and assuming the other party knows exactly what you mean when you’re not saying what you mean. Not saying it’s done in a malicious way, because even having no idea who the PO is nor caring it doesn’t seem to be, but PO just kind of doesn’t say much, doesn’t spell anything out, and apparently assumed the OP understood what was happening, despite a laundry list of indications the OP assumed it was a done deal–not just bringing a trailer, but packing up the husband and all the kids and having a stall and feed and everything ready and the long excited replies. At that point, managing expectations would be “Come down to MEET the pony and let us meet you and we’ll decide if it’s a good fit and work on the contract then.” Bring a trailer, okay, expecting someone to do two fourteen-hour round trips is unreasonable, especially if they have to take days off work, so better to have the trailer there, but make it clear there is no guarantee they’re leaving with the pony. Poor communication may not always kill but it always makes a mess of things.

(I would assume the OP’s other horse’s breeder was a reference. I would assume the PO is the sort who wants references from horse people if they’re going to hand off an animal to them.)

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[QUOTE=ybiaw;8102423]
She DID, though!!!

HER
Thank you so much for the mail, we are looking forward to meet your family tomorrow and will talk about everything, have a safe trip!!!

ME
We will and look forward to tomorrow as well. I want to make sure everything is good though. Mainly because my husband is doing a lot to help me get everything ready and I want him to continue to be involved and helping us.
I know that everyone is excited about getting her and if it doesn’t work out, I won’t get another chance. I want my entire family to be involved in horses.

HER
I totally understand that and I think its great that he is so supportive. About the contract, I admit that we haven’t looked into any types of contract yet, so if it is ok with you we would write one tomorrow. I would like to make firm that we will get her back if anything goes wrong… You are not allowed to sell her. Thats really my most important point. By the way, do you have my adress?[/QUOTE]

All you did was highlight some vague points that are meaningless. Where do you get that “and will talk about everything” interprets into “I know you and your family are excited about the prospect of getting a new pony, but I want to be clear that this is not a done deal as we want to make sure the fit is right for everyone”?

Regarding the contract, saying “I admit we haven’t looked into any types of contract yet so if it is okay with you we would write one tomorrow.” hardly translates into “We will get the contract drawn up after we have met and decide to move forward with this transaction.”

Again, we have an experienced seller and a very enthusiastic newbie buyer. Who do you think should take the lead with this one?

Ugh, just read pages 5-18… I didn’t log in this weekend and thought for sure if the thread made it to 18 pages the PO must have chimed in. Nope!

OP, going to look at a horse/pony with a trailer in tow does not mean you get to buy it.
If OP asked you to do this it was to save you a trip in case things DID work out. If she said, don’t send a commercial shipper- that’s not because she wants you to rent a trailer, because it’s your pony–it’s most likely because she wanted to meet you in person- not send her pony 7 hours away without so much as meeting the person left in charge of her pony.

Hopefully you’ve learned a lesson in all this.

[QUOTE=INeed2WinTheLottery;8102403]
Do you know the PO and that is why you are staunchly defending her?

The OP mentioned more than once they were making preparations to make sure everything was set for the pony to come home with them including buying treats and grain.

As an experienced seller, the PO had plenty of time to set proper expectations to the newbie buyer and to let her know a decision won’t be made until after they arrive and spend some time with the pony.

But she didn’t. At least not that we know of.[/QUOTE]

Nor did she promise the OP that she was going home with a pony.

That’s all I’m saying. I don’t think anyone who has defended the PO said the PO behaved perfectly - just that this is very clearly not a case of the PO reneging on a deal at the last second.

The OP has repeatedly stated that this was a done deal but, when pressed, is unwilling or unable to provide proof that the PO actually promised the pony was theirs and was going home with them.

The OP’s complaint isn’t that the seller was a little vague, but that the seller was 100% definitively giving them a pony and then got cold feet over tack.

Regardless of where you think the blame falls, that is very clearly not the case here.

I have no dog in this fight but am a devotee of common sense. Common sense says, “don’t start telling your kids you got them a pony until the contract is signed and said pony’s on the trailer.” My version isn’t very pithy, so you may understand why “don’t count your chickens before they’ve hatched” is the more common variation. :smiley:

[QUOTE=danceronice;8102841]
That’s…not setting proper expectations. That’s being vague and polite and assuming the other party knows exactly what you mean when you’re not saying what you mean. Not saying it’s done in a malicious way, because even having no idea who the PO is nor caring it doesn’t seem to be, but PO just kind of doesn’t say much, doesn’t spell anything out, and apparently assumed the OP understood what was happening, despite a laundry list of indications the OP assumed it was a done deal–not just bringing a trailer, but packing up the husband and all the kids and having a stall and feed and everything ready and the long excited replies. At that point, managing expectations would be “Come down to MEET the pony and let us meet you and we’ll decide if it’s a good fit and work on the contract then.” Bring a trailer, okay, expecting someone to do two fourteen-hour round trips is unreasonable, especially if they have to take days off work, so better to have the trailer there, but make it clear there is no guarantee they’re leaving with the pony. Poor communication may not always kill but it always makes a mess of things.

(I would assume the OP’s other horse’s breeder was a reference. I would assume the PO is the sort who wants references from horse people if they’re going to hand off an animal to them.)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=INeed2WinTheLottery;8102846]All you did was highlight some vague points that are meaningless. Where do you get that “and will talk about everything” interprets into “I know you and your family are excited about the prospect of getting a new pony, but I want to be clear that this is not a done deal as we want to make sure the fit is right for everyone”?

Regarding the contract, saying “I admit we haven’t looked into any types of contract yet so if it is okay with you we would write one tomorrow.” hardly translates into “We will get the contract drawn up after we have met and decide to move forward with this transaction.”

Again, we have an experienced seller and a very enthusiastic newbie buyer. Who do you think should take the lead with this one?[/QUOTE]

In the same vein, I think it’s a gigantic flying leap for the OP to make from those vague phrases that everything is as good as done. The door swings both ways, according to your own logic.

Just saying.