WWYD: Client's farrier makes me uncomfortable

[pluvinel]

For those of you who might be in a situation where someone is “pushing your buttons” and this person happens to be a male making inappropriate comments the following might of of use.

As I mentioned upthread, I used to do a lot of travel for work at a large multinational corporation. Because of the amount of travel and that some of the travel was international, I was considered a “frequent traveller” eg., exposed to things/dangers that others sitting at a desk were not exposed to.

After a woman employee was violently raped while on business travel, this precipitated a “rape awareness training” workshop that all female employees could attend, but it was mandatory for women who were “frequent travelers.”

This awareness training was put on by the State Police. Besides having situational awareness, I don’t remember much about the training other than the part where the cop discussed their interviews with convicted rapists.

The rapists were asked how they chose their victims. ALL of them said they looked for someone with the vibes of “vulnerable person.” They said they looked for body language that indicated the person was unsure of themselves and would be an easy mark.

This same advice applies to when dealing with the situation like what the OP posted, or when facing another person who is on a power trip. It is up to the woman to set the rules, boundaries and limitations for what she will tolerate. Period.

Sorry…I don’t believe that running to HR, the dining room manager, the Feds, etc is the answer.

Each woman has to define for herself, what she considers appropriate. And then clearly articulate where that line is.

[babybritain]

Thanks everyone! I am lucky to work for a supportive team. If I do interact with this man again, I am going to be prepared to call him out on his actions as many of you have suggested. I think being ready for another such encounter will make all the difference in standing up for myself and those I love.

Pluvinel, I totally get what you’re saying. We each have a personal accountability to set boundaries with others. No one is going to do that for us. However, I do think that places too much responsibility on the victim of unwanted advances/comments/etc. It just sounds dangerously close to the rape culture we are all so familiar with–like when people say, “Oh, maybe it wouldn’t have happened if you had carried yourself differently or dressed differently.”

There was no point in my interaction with him that indicated I was a vulnerable person or invited him with my body language to make inappropriate and hate-filled conversation. I was actually getting after a pushy, recently gelded horse at the time–not exactly the picture of a meek woman.

Should I have told him more explicitly to stop? Yes, absolutely I should have. But what about his responsibility to not be an a**hole? Just something on my mind. Additionally, I do think informing my boss of happenings on their property was the right thing to do for me personally in this instance.

But thank you everyone for the kind words of support. It has made me much less anxious about this situation.

[Stacie]

I’ve recommended this book before: “The Gift Of Fear” . It’s a book about dealing with people like the farrier. Be careful how you call him out, as it could cause the behavior to escalate to something dangerous. Its about setting boundaries without making it look like you’re challenging the person. These people are not mentally stable.

[ladyj79]

I wish men had to take rape awareness training also Pluvinel. Not only are men also victims of rape, but maybe then some others would have a bit more empathy with what the larger victim and potential victim class has to do daily to even attempt to protect themselves.

[Palm_Beach]

I don’t think anyone is intending to victim blame. It sucks that so many of us are raised to be kind and polite, and when we are put in these types of situations it goes against our instincts to stand up for ourselves.

[OneTwoMany]

@Palm Beach

Good for you! My initial thoughts were that the hot tub comment was completely inappropriate and super creepy and absolutely your boss should be alerted to that comment.

Not completely relevant, but while in high school, I used to work summers for a company that sold hot tubs. The number one comment I received, was, “Do you come with it?” and the number two comment was, “Will you try it out for us while we watch?” These clowns all thought they were clever and funny. I would simply looked the bozo square in the face and say, “The hot tub comes with all of the features listed here on the brochure.” I would offer them a brochure. And then I would ask them if they had any questions I could answer for them. Usually the dork moved on.

[retiredhorse]

@babybritain

Should I have told him more explicitly to stop? Yes, absolutely I should have. But what about his responsibility to not be an a**hole? Just something on my mind. Additionally, I do think informing my boss of happenings on their property was the right thing to do for me personally in this instance.

ITA. There’s also very much a greater than zero chance he (or any harasser) could’ve escalated or gotten more aggressive, especially if you were alone with him, if you told him directly to knock it off or got mad or any response that he didn’t take well – and that’s on him, not you or me or anyone they’re harassing. If Terry Crews (former NFL player, currently an actor) can be sexually harassed, I don’t know that an average woman (or man, for that matter) can be more physically strong/intimidating. Telling other people is definitely a good thing, imo.

Also leads to people being silent when told they could’ve done more to stop it themselves, because there is added shame of being judged for their actions or dress or lack of self-defense (pretty sure most of us already kick ourselves for what we did or didn’t do, why add to that, especially when there is nothing that works 100% (how you dress, how you act, where you go, if you’re actively training to fight other people/take self-defense classes… even if you’re super vigilant, you can still be surprised and caught unprepared)), when the focus should be on teaching everyone about consent and respecting boundaries (eg, hold a “don’t rape” course, hold those people accountable for their actions).

[pluvinel]

The “attitude” I am referring to is an attitude that sends off the vibe of “here is one self confident woman” where ever that woman may be and whatever she may be doing…and whatever age she may be.

The attitude I’m talking about is best exemplified by Hilde Kate Lysiak, a 9-year old girl when locals told her she “should be a girl” not be out reporting on a local murder.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/9-year-…pected-murder/

A 9-year-old reporter who wrote about a suspected murder in her small Pennsylvania town is defending herself after some locals lashed out about a young girl covering violent crimes…

Soon after, her Facebook page and YouTube channel were clogged with negative comments urging her to “play with dolls” and have a tea party, and questioning her parents’ judgment in letting her do such work.

“It kind of gets me angry because, just because I’m 9 doesn’t mean I can’t do a great story,” she said Tuesday. “It doesn’t mean I can’t be a reporter.”
…
Hilde hit back with a video on her news site, posted Sunday, first reading some of the comments aloud, including “I am disgusted that this cute little girl thinks she is a real journalist. What happened to tea parties?” and “Nine-year-old girls should be playing with dolls, not trying to be reporters.”

She then defended her hard work.

“I know this makes some of you uncomfortable, and I know some of you just want me to sit down and be quiet because I’m 9. But if you want me to stop covering news, then you get off your computer and do something about the news. There, is that cute enough for you?”

How is this for “attitude” when people try a smackdown of a 9-yr old girl.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ShfNQOUeAY

Hilde’s Wikepedia page
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilde_Lysiak

In 2015, Lysiak stated for the Columbia Journalism Review that she does not want to work for a newspaper someday, she wants to own her own newspaper.

How’s that for confidence…She’s my hero.

[retiredhorse]

That is an amazing girl and I totally admire her attitude. ITA that self-confidence is a great thing to have and cultivate.

But, at the same time, confidence/attitude is no guarantee that someone isn’t going to harass you (general); and lack of self-confidence is not (or should not be) an invitation for harassment. Heck, some people would take a girl’s confidence as a challenge to break down – that also needs to be addressed, imo. Like, what makes those awful commenters think their attitude/mind-set is acceptable in the first place, would they be as dismissive if she were a boy, etc.

Framing rape culture as an individual’s problem (dress better, act better, be more confident, don’t go to certain places, take self-defense classes, etc, haven’t we already heard it all) doesn’t work because you can’t control another person’s behavior. There is something comforting in thinking that if you do everything right, nothing bad will happen to you, but I don’t know that the world actually works like that. I do think a cultural shift towards consent and boundaries and respect is a good thing; ie, anything other than an enthusiastic and un-coerced yes is a no. If taught early and often, maybe (hopefully) there will be a down shift in harassers who internalize some narrative that they’re owed sex or that they should be persistent when told no or are sexist/misogynistic/racist or take advantage of other people…

I don’t know what is in the nature or nurture of men (and women, too, though I’ve not been sexually harassed by one) I’ve met who are absolutely great with consent and boundaries, and those who aren’t or who are generally ok, but still have made low-level creepy/sexist remarks (but would be completely appalled if you thought they were sexist or harassing women, how dare you accuse them of anything untoward). I think it starts early. Like, my family is big on hugging and cheek kisses, but for me, if my younger relatives seem uncomfortable or don’t offer a hug first, I don’t ask for one or think it’s disrespectful of them to dislike this routine. I think it becomes a bigger issue when this maybe small discomfort around being touched, even when benign or platonic or “totally harmless/safe”, is normalized.

[CHT]

I am sorry you went through that with the farrier, but happy with your employer’s response…although firing him seems more appropriate. I am not convinced it was just a power play, though. He may actually think those things and lack an “appropriateness” filter.

[hoopoe]

i think every employee need to document these type of on the job situations with their employer.

It is not about "running to mommy " and not standing up for yourself.

it is about documenting a situation which may have legal ramifications and play in to future claims, such as unemployment and wrongful termination suits.

sadly in situation both big corporation and small mom and pop, they idea that your employer is on your side is not always true

[HungarianHippo]

@JustTheTicket

And yeah, now that you know your boss has your back, don’t take any crap from this guy. He says something racist? Call him on it. Literally say " that’s racist". He says something sexually harassing? " dude. You’re being a pervert." He’s being a really bad stallion basically, and your boss handed you the figurative stud chain. Use it, girl.

I don’t agree with this tactic. There’s no point in trying to get him to see that he’s a racist or a pervert-- I guarantee he’ll instantly push back against those highly subjective labels (ten bucks says he goes to the “I can’t be racist, I have black friends” defense). Don’t get locked in a pointless debate about what he “is”, because it doesn’t matter.

What he thinks is not the issue and not something you can ever change/control. But how and when you engage with him is something you absolutely, 100% control. “Joe,I’m busy and you’ll need to keep your conversations with me strictly work-related. If you have a work-related question or request, let me know.” That’s it-- you don’t owe him any explanation or justification for your policy. Just go back to work. Ignore and do not continue responding to anything that’s not specific to work.

Glad your employer has your back-- good job for taking the steps needed to get that support!

[M]

quote: OP "I took the advice some gave and told my boss, and I’m glad I did. She was outraged. She said if he ever opens his mouth again in that manner that he will be banned from the property, and that I do not have to handle the horse for this particular farrier. She will ask the owner to do so. That came as a huge relief."

Sounds pretty resolved, If it happens again - tell your boss. Good for you and the horse that you do not have to handle horses for that farrier. Hopefully you will choose not to handle horses for that farrier thus you can ignore him. Let your boss take the steps she said she would if warranted

quote: from Hungarian Hippo who has good advice to for next instance : “What he thinks is not the issue and not something you can ever change/control. But how and when you engage with him is something you absolutely, 100% control. “Joe,I’m busy and you’ll need to keep your conversations with me strictly work-related. If you have a work-related question or request, let me know.” That’s it-- you don’t owe him any explanation or justification for your policy. Just go back to work. Ignore and do not continue responding to anything that’s not specific to work.”

There is an unmentioned potential or probable repercussion to reacting and being sucked into his game rather than doing as H Hippo suggests followed up with a report to your boss. That repercussion is likely to the horse by being poorly trimmed or shod and/or the farrier taking out his anger or bent ego on the horse.

[OverandOnward]

If he’s still there, this isn’t over, I’m afraid.

For the sake of the barn it would be better to get rid of this guy right now. I don’t know if your client knows exactly what he said, but she needs to know. Your barn manager needs to set a bright clear boundary and tell the client that he’s not to return to this property.

He’s a bundle of problems that will continue to break out and perhaps eventually lead to a major issue of some sort. He knows that his behavior is 100% unacceptable and he does it anyway. Even though he’s the client’s farrier, by affecting you, he’s affecting the barn. None of you are qualified to “fix” him, nor is it your place try. The business problems he will cause are all preventable by giving him the boot now.

A throwaway line that instantly defines where I see the boundaries without a confrontation, is to cheerfully, loudly but UNsmilingly say “Oh, you know that comment just won’t work around here!” Then immediately turn my back and walk away. That cuts off any discussion or argument about what they said. It’s a signal that some transgressors recognize that if they do it again, they won’t be there much longer.

Then later on in private he can be fired. Or the client told that he can’t come back.

Don’t quiet or hush your public response if other people are around, out of embarrassment. It’s good if everyone who heard his remark also hears your response, so that they know that the boundaries are the boundaries.

I avoid more direct and personal “that’s unacceptable” or “don’t be a jerk” type statements because they often lead to an argumentative comeback. That allows the guy (rarely a gal) to continue controlling the attention that he really wanted in the first place. He is likely to start the whole “what part of Africa?” type of tack, or the self-justifying “well in my opinion” or “there’s research that shows” etc bs. The real point of “discussing it” is that the guy is retaining his power to make you uncomfortable.

Whatever you say or do, do not be tentative about it. Be definite and firm. Set boundaries not just with him but with your employer and even with the client. You can refuse to have anything to do with him. You have the right to do this and you owe it to yourself. If they don’t respect your boundaries, time to start looking for work elsewhere.

Employees like this - he’s effectively an employee even if that’s not his exact relationship - are very costly to a business. They cause other better employees to quit, not only losing valuable people, but then incurring the cost of hiring and onboarding a new employee (multiple employees, in many cases). People like him lose customers. They interfere with business. There is a study that estimates that problem employees cost a business three times their compensation, annually. Much better to just move on.

[Palm_Beach]

@CHT

I am sorry you went through that with the farrier, but happy with your employer’s response…although firing him seems more appropriate. I am not convinced it was just a power play, though. He may actually think those things and lack an “appropriateness” filter.

The farrier works for the person who pays him, which would usually be the horse owner. The barn owner can ban him from the property, although normally you would allow both sides to tell their story, and I suspect there would be a lot of “he said she said” involved. This is not in defense of the farrier, he’s a pig, but I’m sure he would defend himself by saying he was joking and OP is too sensitive. I’m not sure what procedures, legally, the barn owner would have to follow since the farrier is not her employee.

[16_Hands]

This guy is a pig and needs to be shut down immediately. I have a similar story to relate and it was about finding my power because I too was raised to “be a lady” and always “play nice.” I used to be non-confrontational and avoided conflict but in this instance, I found my voice.

I was working for a public agency as a senior administrative specialist and the agency hired this guy who no one liked, didn’t know the job he was hired to do, treated women like second class citizens who he sexually harassed on a regular basis, making lewd comments. One day, he and a few other guys were gathered around waiting for my boss, they were all going to lunch.

One guy opens this file cabinet right outside my cube and took a look inside. A-hole guy said “what are you looking at? 16 Hands dirty pictures?” I looked up at him and said “what did you say?” I just went off on him and tore him a new one. I had had enough of his actions and let him know it was not appropriate and if it continued I was reporting him to HR. My boss didn’t hear the whole of it but we talked about it later and then 3 weeks go by and HR calls me and I go and relate the story again. They said I handled it the right way and now it was documented.

A-hole guy was cowed for a little while but then started again and I went right to HR. He was fired not long after.

[BeeHoney]

@Palm Beach

The farrier works for the person who pays him, which would usually be the horse owner. The barn owner can ban him from the property, although normally you would allow both sides to tell their story, and I suspect there would be a lot of “he said she said” involved. This is not in defense of the farrier, he’s a pig, but I’m sure he would defend himself by saying he was joking and OP is too sensitive. I’m not sure what procedures, legally, the barn owner would have to follow since the farrier is not her employee.

A BO has control of who may or may not come on the property. The BO may not directly employ the farrier or be a client who contracts for his services, but she is allowing him the courtesy of coming onto her property to practice his trade, which confers her a fair amount of control. The correct thing to do is for her to alert the trainer who uses that farrier of the situation. Next, a conversation with the farrier is in order, something along the lines of, “I don’t care what your personal or political beliefs are, or if you are looking for someone to date, but you may not hit on my staff, you may not speak suggestively to any of my staff, nor may you make offensive racist or sexist remarks on my property in front of staff or clients. I’m running a business and that kind of behavior is unprofessional and unacceptable.” I personally don’t expect employees to defend themselves. Defending yourself firmly but professionally from such odious behavior requires skills that a lot of people don’t have and may only escalate the situation or turn it into more of a public spectacle, which it may deserve but which it also is not good for business.

I’m not sure there would be much he said-she said. Claiming that he was “joking” or that the groom was taking him too seriously would be an admission of guilt. Of course, there could be some fall out. Clients or the trainer might not care that the farrier is a jerk. The farrier might respond angrily and refuse to return or behave worse on his return. However, in my experience, farriers or vets or trainers who are having problems with their behavior are NEVER a good bet. It ALWAYS ends up affecting their work and affecting the horses.

[Hulk]

I was recently harassed at work by a creepy perv. I did not handle it well. I guess I was a deer in the headlights type of shocked, and I didn’t react as I should have and shut it down quickly. But to be honest I really never saw it coming and didn’t think at my age 49 that it was something I still had to worry about. I guess what I am saying is sometimes it has to sink in before we react, because we are caught off guard. One of those I should of said or done this after the fact moments. But I can assure you I am ready, on guard, and willing to take care of the matter now.

This guys behavior was totally unacceptable. Both for the harassment and racist remarks. I am glad the OP told the BO, now the BO can set the standard as to proper conduct on her property. No one on the property should have to put up with that kind of BS. And the BO should know what is going on, how they deal with it is entirely on them, but they should know.

[Palm_Beach]

@BeeHoney

A BO has control of who may or may not come on the property. The BO may not directly employ the farrier or be a client who contracts for his services, but she is allowing him the courtesy of coming onto her property to practice his trade, which confers her a fair amount of control. The correct thing to do is for her to alert the trainer who uses that farrier of the situation. Next, a conversation with the farrier is in order, something along the lines of, “I don’t care what your personal or political beliefs are, or if you are looking for someone to date, but you may not hit on my staff, you may not speak suggestively to any of my staff, nor may you make offensive racist or sexist remarks on my property in front of staff or clients. I’m running a business and that kind of behavior is unprofessional and unacceptable.” I personally don’t expect employees to defend themselves. Defending yourself firmly but professionally from such odious behavior requires skills that a lot of people don’t have and may only escalate the situation or turn it into more of a public spectacle, which it may deserve but which it also is not good for business.

I’m not sure there would be much he said-she said. Claiming that he was “joking” or that the groom was taking him too seriously would be an admission of guilt. Of course, there could be some fall out. Clients or the trainer might not care that the farrier is a jerk. The farrier might respond angrily and refuse to return or behave worse on his return. However, in my experience, farriers or vets or trainers who are having problems with their behavior are NEVER a good bet. It ALWAYS ends up affecting their work and affecting the horses.

We only have the OP’s version of the story. In the real world, you give both sides an opportunity to state what happened. The farrier works for Jane, whoever Jane is. The OP provided sketchy details, we all agree that according to what she says the farrier is a pig, but in real life you get a rebuttal.

[emipou]

I got half way down the first page and just wanted to say that all these people who are telling OP to suck it up, are just horrifying to me.
The guy made a sexual remark, then made a completely horrible racist remark regarding her husband. THIS IS HARASSMENT. This isn’t spanning over a length of time. These are the first encounters.

This will only escalate and NEEDS. TO. STOP. N O W.